Replicas, why bother ??

How about if they represent theur car as a recreation or clone, using the term fake is denigarting and elitist, and the person using that term has little appreciation for machineary beyong $$$ value.

Over in the vintage thread there is a heated debate over turning a surviving period can am car into a P4. To me this sia recreation, you might even term it a fake. After all what will remain is some chassis bits and a datat plate. the failure to acceot and even sanction recreations is what directly results in the destruction of genuine period pices through crashes restoration and rebuild. If you care about the cars then you msut relaise that the top of the pile is a surviving unrestored period piece, the way to keep these pices intact for posterity is to offer equivalenbt alternatives. the way to keep appreciation alive is by expanding the desire and auduence, recreations do all these things.

Yes if someone claims a recreation is aperiod pice they are faking or commiting fraud, but there are a whole host of otehr reasons why recreations are great. Startign with they are fun to use and apopreciate and moving on to they allow for the preservation for psterity of period builds. BTW most so called old authetic racers have been rebuilt and restored so heavily that they really are recreations with aperiod datta plate and a corrosponding huge price tag, which really is a ludicrous farce.

 

Crazy kind of statements I expect to hear from a disenfranchised youth full of resentment. I do not fault the guy that has a Mondial or a guy with a paddle 458. Not even the guy with a Ferrari hat (as long as it's licenced). They all share enthusiasm for Ferrari at some level and have their own reasons for having and doing what they want with what they have.

 

All are terms used to somehow elevate the perceived value of a fake. To baffle or BS a way closer to the real thing. Of obvious importance to those wanting or needing the Ferrari halo effect. It's not a crazy conspiracy by the elite or big auction houses to dismiss these cars, it has more to do with society general sentiments toward fake items. The market for fake cars in general is very, very soft. Licenced recreations are a whole different market and those ultra high dollar fakes commissioned be wealthy individuals are definitely not the norm.

 

If Sir Sterling Moss decides to stuff a rare original car into a wall, that's great and it's just another earned badge of honour. The car probably just got more valuable. That Enzo stuffed by Eddie Griffin however has earned a badge of shame. Again the real vs replica argument even holds up when applied to drivers.

 

The term fake is used toi denigarde and debase a car, recreation is aterm used to put it in tis proper place not elevate it beyond what it is. recreation or clone is a neutral term, fake is a negative one.

So I guess then Alan Mann who raced Gt 40's in period at lemans adds what to his GT40 recreations? I gues legitimacy. Same with Holman Moody when they do one. Point is the people who know and actualy race and raced in period love recreations. same with Tiff Needel and a whole host of others whose opinion really counts.

As to society's genral sentiment, I guess the market speaks and I see a huge industry here refelecting sicietys sentiment in the positive, which is why some get upset.

Lets see Leno plugging for a pur sang bugatrti, is he a fake dealer then or a far more legitimate and enlightened enthiusiast than most. I think at 250k a pur sang is an ultra high dollar car.

BTW the market for recreations of ferraris is very strong, they usualy seell for a few 100k more than they cost to build. I would also guess that the high dollar ferrari recreations now run into the hundreds, so by recreation standards these really are the norm. Same BTW with Cobras which even tool room recreations like Kirkham run into number higher than period 427s. You know the saying if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck.

 

I think you know not of what you speak. Most classics stuffed inot a wall are done by no nam(in racing circles) wealthy owners not sir stirling. PLus an 80 something stirling crashing a car makes it less valuable. If he raced the car in period and won that adds value to aparticular car.

I guess using your logic when Derek bell drives a recreation it legitimises it then. Bob Bondurant too.

Then of course we have that hollowed institution the FIA santionoing and legitimising recreations so by your logic if the great Bernie and all those fabulous teams who belong to the FIA say its Ok then it must be.

 

And I dont fault the guy with a recreation, at some level he has his own reasons for doin g what he does. taking it fiether the people who I see with a recreation are doing it purely for the joy of the machine as designed, that is elevated to me above some hero idol worship of a dead Enzo or succumbing to the ferrari marketing machine and buying crap overpriced chochkies, the display of which i think truly debases the brand along with theme parks pens etc.

Anyway we have different views dont denigate mine by calling the thing a fake and I wont denigrate yours by calling your type of enthusuast a poseur looking for legintimacy by brand hero worship. There are lots of different reasons why people own and drive carsm some are good and some crappy, that applies to "real" car owners and those of recreations or kit cars.

As to faulting the mondial owner. lets face it if you own a mondial you are comitted to the drive because the costs of running a mondial vs its "image" in the pantheon of so called ferrari worship mean it is for the passion not for the pose. Now most 458 drivers, they move on as soon as the next better trinket to display sucess in a ferrari comes along, what is their motivation, for very few its about the drive, whereas a recreation owner 90% it can only be about the drive because as you say its not "real" I value the people who are intot he drive and the machine, your crew values the idolization of the badge and what marketing has led you to belive it represents and projects.

Anyway nice weather tomorrow so I will take the "real" boxer for its early morning run, and I guess the mind machine melding which is special to a ferri designed product means what you or I think will be irrelevant to the pleasure of the drive, and I bet a recreation does the same thing, which to me is what all its about.

 

Yeah, right! I think your on to something big. Get your www.replicachat.com now! You show 'em, you show the world. Rob Lay look out!

 

No that misses the point completely, haters will be haters, and snobs will be snobs, and life's to short to bother with either!
It only takes one sentence to say " I don't like..." not 50 of the same over & over, making discussion into nonsense, like this thread has become
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And people that are fakers will be fake!

 

LOL wow, that'll show 'em!

 

You might want to check the classifieds on here for the Kirkham that's selling for half of what the owner says he has into it. No period Cobra can be had for $110,000 that I know of.

 

I see so at 110K is it cheap? Yes you might take an initial depreciation hit on a recreation produced in big numbers, which would mean your reason is not investment, but pleasure of owning. Contrast this with the latest gotta have it F-car owner..

More to the point of this site, look at the value of any Favre or Allegretti GTO vs what thye cost new, if you can find one.

Lets see what a Rs lightweight tribute cost. Maybe less than the build, but if you buy done they dont deoreciate.

I dont think mass produced recreations depreciate from new any faster than any number of new "great" cars, in fact many appreciate over time. Then there are high end recreations like those of ferraris astons and racing jags they all seem to apprecitae.

How about an aston zagato santion2 at 3.5 mill, which is a car that was made by RS williams of a DB4 in the 90's. Or look at the price of any lynx XKSSS if you can find one. Or how about a proteus ctype, once again if you can find one..

I also think you can build a Kirkham or Shelby licensed Kirkham with aluminum big blocl 427 Fe for that price, 110K so if someone overpsent thats their bad deal.

BTW an aluminmun Shelby 427 continuation and a Kirkhham are the same car. If an old build cobra is approaching 1 mill and you can get the same car from Shelby just newly built for 110K that is a smart deal if you want the car for the driving.

As we see in the vintage thread, taking a period Ferrari can am car and putting a replica P4 body and various other bits on it makes it more valuable and profitable for the owner/vendor, which is why that particular desecration is being done.

As to what I advocate, I am all for recreations of high end cars and have nothing against kit cars at all, I welcome enthgusuasts and disdain poseurs whether in a new car or pretendimg their CT replica is a "real" lambo. Only we find far more poserus in new cars and far more enthusiasts by ratio in kit cars and recreations.

Putting aside Kit cars, here is the value of a recreation/clone, with recreations we would not have 2+2's being chopped into GTO's and can am cars turned into Bitsa's. The racing is far more authentic because ashunt does not ruin a period artifact. The scope of the hobby is widened for fans and most importantly drivers. many more drivers, or at least those who are serious about driving get to experience the greats. When was the last time you heard about someone comntemporrary posting even driving impressions of a P3/4, not gonna happen these cars are motive meuseum pieces now, and correctly so.

If you read SCM you will see in the auctions now that well done recreations fetch good prices and there is steadily growing acceptance and a market. in fact a sharknose recreation is for sale in Europe right now, it is accepted at all the best events. those that know ferraris know what it is, and they love it for its attention to detail and bringing something back to life so it can be experienced and enjoyed. Then the have the auto munioin recreations comissioned by Audi and built in the Uk. Yous ee Audi can keep the old ones in a meseum for posterity and still demostrate and drive an auto union grand prix car, this is the same logic that applies to all recreations.

Last week at lunch there was a gathering of Cobras, everything from FF to Kirkham cars. I admired them all for what they were. Personaly I gravitated to the Kirkham and Era because I loved the way they were built and what they were, which really is a continuation of a 60's Cobra. I dont denigrate FF cars, I personaly woudl not build one, its too far from what i think a Cobra is, but their owners put their all into them and far more talent than the ones comissioning a Kirkham or ERA.

Like my Cobra example, anyone who knows cars and is into them can see a recreation and appreciate it for how well done it is and what it is. If some fool is fooled do we really care, I mean if you cant tell, or its so important to you then what a car means to you is probably something that has little to do with what it really is and a whole lot to do with what it represents in terms of status and $$$, I have no time for that attitude.

When last I went to a cruise in there were any number of muscle cars, maybe some were authetiic hemis others not, I really didnt care, if theywere well executed they were cool, and their owners joy and pride was what counted. Yeah if I wanted an old build hemi I would do the research and then probaby own a car I was afraid to use because of depreciating the restoration. even then woudl it really be an old hemi or a new body with a data plate from a long rusted and destroyed car?

Frankly I woudl rather take a 318 cuda convertible, great motor great car, and if I had to have a hemi I would drop one in and keep the 318 so i coudl put the car back the way it came in time. It would be a relatively and I use the term relatively affordable car that I could actualy use fully, and to me that is where the buck stops.

In fact I would probably buy one of thoose new build bodies and build my hemi that way, its not going to be worth the build cost but would be a great car, all that would have come from Motown in 1970 would be the data plate from a leser car. And how many of those recreations are running around now, a lot, because there is a big buisness in making New old bodies. So iguess Its Ok for a Ford or Chrysler, but somehow sacriledge to do with a Ferrari, give me a break. Yeah Fords are ubiquitous so a few more does not dilute the brand. Well there are so few old ferraris that a few more enhances the brand through exposure and expereince. If anythig dilutes the ferrari brand these days is schlock clothing and bric brac coupled with new owners who are flippers for profit.

By your logic I could not be able to buy a SBF ford block from dart or any number of other companies because they are stealing Fords design. Frankly if the design is no longer protected and there is a market for it go ahead. Speaking of aftermarket ford motors and chevys as well, these are thigs that enhanced the marque prestige.

 

Stay In The Car Honey.....

You sound like a real idiot or cheerleader and that's why people will hate or resent those elitist poseurs who think or act like you.

You say '....real enthusiasm for the 'brand.' WTF...are you freaking kidding me???

I will always love replicas or fakes or whatever you want to call them, just because it pizzes stupid sycophantic brand whores like you off!

 

Wow! You just let your fake handbag fly!

 

Don't like what? Your fake handbag? Man purse or whatever you people call them.

 

You wrote: "Putting aside Kit cars, here is the value of a recreation/clone...." I found value in one of the worst kit cars ever built.

One evening a few months ago I noticed a bright yellow 328 QV in my local N. Georgia Mountain Ingles parking lot. Idling by I was smitten by the looks alone. So started some casual google searches. My California sister said she had found one online just like the one I noticed. In fact, it was in MY VERY OWN TOWN and was being advertised for a mere $20,000. It was a four cylinder Fiero.

OK. I did not buy the four cylinder Fiero. But I now have a really nice 1986 Rosso Prugna Mondial. I've already put nearly 2,000 miles on it. Up here in the mountains it could not possibly have been a better choice. Incognito color, presents like a two year old used car, and runs like a scalded hound all over deserted mountain roads.

So that particular Fiero was of great value. At least to me.

 

Alright now, on your bike ladyboy.

 

love the mondial, never saw a Kit 308 get the shape quite right. Once sawa great pantera Kit and some CT kits get the shape spot on. Hoever asa you know from your mondial drives the best poart of these cars is the way they go, for that you need a recreation.
But whatever floats your boat.

 

You don't always need tonnes of power to have fun. Some times a nice little well balanced sorted machine can be really rewarding. Then there is always the possibility of something such as a stroker kit like the one Newman put on a customers 308 GTB. Man that was a nice car.

 

I know you dont need tonnes of power, that is why a modial is so great. Its the stretch of power the wide powerband that doesent end. these are carving cars not accleration cars.

The thing about stroker morors and I am gnberalising, is that thye run out of revs sooner and the power is lover down in the rev range. Ferraris as an experience rev forever and build power with revs. But of course you need the right type of open fast sweepres to enjoy what a ferrari has to give.

The nwer ones are more of agenralist being good and pliable in traffic with great top end. Problem for me is like a lot of moderns they only really thrill when approaching 10/10ths which given their limits is goingto be pretty rare on the street.

Even my boxer comes more and more alive and responsive the more you push it, below 7/10ths its more like work. bThe power is such that pushing already implies alot of speed. But then a maondoal is the same because the responsiveness and power is up in the revs and up in the speed.

All of which is to say that ferraris and older ones especialy are not idealy suited to most American road conditions which in general are highways(where speed is limited) straights between stoplights(where are ferrari will be relatively slow) but yea on the right road they have a magic other cars do not, except maybe a lotus(which is aharder cruder experience) some porches and good alfas. And of course an recreation incorporating the best bits.

On the right road on the right day in the right temperature range there is a magic in ta ferrari design car that cant be beat. On the wrong day ont he wrong road they truly can be apain.

I am guessing those mountain passes in Colorado are ideal Ferrari land.

 

yes why bother

 

The Mondial has more spunk then I expected. Ferrari advertised 270 hp @ 3400 lb which is about the same as the CTS 3.6 I ran for awhile. The Caddy just simply did not have the lungs. This 1986 QV has a third gear to die for. I have only reached 6k in fourth on a sweeper, but I noticed no particular change in character.

Any modern pony car could keep up, if the driver had any experience. One Mustang did a jump from 60 to 70 then gave me a a turn. The very sound of the downshift to third and off and running down the mountain and I never needed fourth. Hell. The sounds scares the hell out of me.

 

I also ran one of the original 2.8 vvts that would flap its hummgbird 215 hp at 7k all day long. I was driving it back from Cleveland Georgia towards Blairsville up over Blood Mountain. I have NEVER been passed on that four lane wonderland. My normal ride was a Lincoln Mark VII boosted with 8 psi, and strapped down to the road with sub-frame connectors, boxed rear suspension pieces, stabilizer bars the size of drain pipes and fine tuned with about a dozen steering rack, upper strut mount and stabilizer bar bushings. C-5 Corvettes were a snack.

This time, however, I noticed two crotch rockets in the line behind me. Only one of them got up on my ass, but he would not take me on the outside. But I knew there was a four second straight at the top, and I just knew. I just knew I would finally be taken. But he resigned as we came upon the final hard right hander. Lesson? Practice your GD braking.

 

Yeah nothing like a motor that spins, even more fun if you have to work it to keep the steam up. You know the saying, its more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.
Those roads sound great.