599 pre purchase inspection shows need for new ceramics

I am in the process of seeking a nice 599 for a very close friend. We had chosen the following car and sent it for a full ppi to the local Ferrari dealer here in Dubai- the car has 26k kms on it and is in excellent condition but the garage reports that it needs new discs and pads all round due to '93% wear' of the current ceramics. Price quoted is AED 126k ($35k!). I cannot comprehend

1. this level of wear on ceramics and

2. the replacement price..I have just been totally put off ownership of any Ferrari built after 2008!

Can any of this be right or is the garage trying it on?

Deals On Wheels

 

Unless the car was tracked, hard to believe the CCM rotors are completey worn/heat cycled out at 26,000 km. Pads possibly, rotors, no. Prices on the front rotors vary from over $6K each to $4K each, depending on source, so their quote, if the work needed to be done, is a bit on the high side.

 

If the car has been tracked, that is definently possible. From the little I know, it is not possible to visually identify a worn ceramic brake disc, unlike steel rotors. It has something to do with the weight, or something like that, but not sure.
you can find here some threads of owners even swapping their ceramic rotors for steel ones in Scuderia's, due to a lot of track time.
Reason for that is that the mainetance/replacement of the steel ones are much cheaper.

 

Plus, it is not even 26k miles, it its 26k KMS, whic is around 16k miles.

 

I don't trust that garage much. I've had a couple of friends who got quotes and decided not to go with that garage.

 

Run forest run!

 

So does anyone know how the CCM rotor wear is measured?

 

CCM wear is not measured. An algorithm estimates wear based on use pattern, use frequency, and heat cycles estimated by the algorithm (no temperature sensor involved). It is possible to remove a rotor and weigh it, but even this is not always an accurate predictor. For street use, Ferrari recommends replacing the rotors at every second pad change. Again, just a WAG.

 

Actually very interesting this, was at a local Ferrari technical evening held at the dealer and one of the guys there has worked at the factory in the R&D department and we were chatting about brakes and as it works exactly as mentioned above, the computer calculates wear and will flash a warning, I would imagine at 93% there would be a warning light if the brakes are that worn. Secondly one only needs to change the discs every second pad change so I doubt at that low km reading it would have had 2 sets of pads already.

Incidently in development they ran a 360 on CC brakes for over 350 000 kms on one set of discs...normal non track driving. The clutch also lasted to 160 000 kms....

PS Terry, friend of mine has recently bought at a Daytona to go with his GTO, what a lovely mechanical car the Daytona is!

 

Jacques- I really enjoyed mine when I had her back in the late 70s. Acceleration better than a big block Corvette and effortless long range cruising at any speed you wanted. Steering was extremely precise for a worm and roller system, sort of like the big Mercedes SEC coupes.

Mine had about half the mufflers missing, too, so sounded really glorious in the engine compartment and from the exhaust.

 

Some pics of it in the vintage section. I suspect some of the mufflers may go missing in this one too over time....

 

I think people are overlooking the fact that the OP is located in Dubai, which is essential a hot desert coastal town in the Persian Gulf.

SANDY DUSTY ENVIRONMENT
Here is a photo of an F40 that was apparently abandoned in Dubai back in 2009. This webpage chronicled the fate of Dubai luxury cars left out in the open (not sure for how long).

Image Unavailable, Please Login

SUSTAINED HIGH TEMPERATURES
According to Wikipedia, "…Summers in Dubai are extremely hot, humid and very dry, with an average high around 40 °C (104 °F) yet usually higher than 40…".

CCM brake pads and rotors are made of carbon, ceramic (silicon oxide) and resin. The rotor material is probably made from silica and resin that are somewhat resilient than the same material used on the pads and the end result is that the tougher material in the rotors wears the pads down. However, sand is consists of quartz, which is silicon oxide, same material in the CCM brakes. If there is constant presence of sand in everyday road dust, it will get between the pads and the rotors and will bed into the pads, acting like tiny pebbles stuck in the brake pads. We all know what happens if you get a stone stuck in the brakes, it will score the rotor… extremely bad news for a CCM rotor!

To support my argument, here's a website discussed what happens to brake pads when used in muddy and sandy conditions(referring to iron rotors of course):

"…It's a good idea to have a spare set of front and rear brake pads available at the races. Muddy and sandy conditions spell murder on pads, and some pro riders are lucky to get 30 minutes out of a set…"​

Here's what the (privately-sponsored) ARMY STUDY GUIDE says about desert conditions:

"…Wheeled vehicles are subject to brake system component failures and power steering leaks on rocky deserts.…"

"…Increase PLLs for the following parts due to high failure rates:

- Tires.
- All track components.
- All suspension components for both wheel and track vehicles.
- Brake shoes.
- Bearings and bushings. …"​

PLL = Prescribed Load List (i.e. inventory to bring along) and AFAIK the Army doesn't use CCM brakes.

There's more but I think you can see the case for my argument that Dubai is not a friendly place for exotic cars, or any car for that matter. It's a fact of like that there are regular sand storms in the area and that nothing can be done about the ever-present sandy dust. It's airborne. There was someone else in Dubai who complained about CCM brake replacement in a California after 15,000 km - I bet you, same causes.

Would you like to drive and park your FCar every day in a desert? How long would your car last?

IMO, it's not the FCar dealer, the car or the brakes. It's the desert. I bet you the dealer knows why this happens and just does what it takes to maintain these cars in such places. It's neither mystery nor mishap to them.

 

Michael- Great info, but I doubt if that is the reason.

 

Well Terry, there's always another possibility but it seems quite clear that brakes (and other mechanical components) will wear prematurely and quite rapidly under desert conditions. People also drive very aggressively in the UAE so it isn't a good mix.

Metalworkers make burnishers by bedding fine abrasive powders onto metal or hardwood substrate surfaces. I've made them before. The powders are harder than the substrate and so embed themselves onto the substrate producing a file or burnisher with the coarseness of the powder. Brake pads are softer than rotors so they can act as the substrate if an abrasive powder is placed between the pad and the rotor. The action of braking is also similar to what you find with a grinding wheel, only that brakes are turned much more aggressively as they can get red hot.

This is the 2nd post I read regarding worn CCM brake components and interestingly, the 1st post I read was also from someone in Dubai about "Brake Pad replacement at 15k KM!". Here it is below, you'll remember I'm sure.

I doubt this car has been tracked or the PPI would find other issues like worn paintwork, air ducts/grills, radiator damage, a respray maybe, worn shocks, loose ball joints and there may be records of extra maintenance.

The only other explanation I can think of is that someone swapped out the original brake rotors and pads. Many years I personally saw this happen at a high end non-factory garage where they stole parts off cars that come in for other reasons in order to refurbish someone else's car.

 

F40 is a kit car

 

Actually, you shouldn't quote an entire long message if you are only referring to a tiny portion of it - it messes up the thread. But yes, I did notice the incorrect proportions of the "F40" but my point was that Dubai is a very dusty place. Where I am, you'd have to park your car next to a demolition site to accumulate that kind of dust. Dubai experiences seasonal sandstorms. It's smack in the middle of a desert.

This Dubai MB is also from the same webpage reference.

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

...well I agree with your point that posts should be trimmed of content that is not relevant to the issue. So yes Dubai is very dusty...I can think of a few other other locations in the world that have similar conditions and I doubt Ferrari programs local geographic conditions to determines wear of CCM rotors. Your references, while interesting, are a red herring as they relate to steel rotors which has little in common CCM, it would be akin to using steel model to predict fatigue of a carbon fiber part.

 

Regular brake rotors are actually made of cast iron, not steel and I would say both iron and CCM brakes only work properly when they are properly bedded. The difference in materials only results in superior performance and longevity of the CCM units but all brakes wear out eventually.

My hypothesis is that when you get contaminants embedded in the brakepad, be it a rock pebble or a coating of sand, you no longer retain the efficient braking effect from a properly-bedded set of brakes. The foreign material result in high points on the pads which create hot spots and high pressure points that mechanically scratch and damage the surface of the rotors. These focused pressure points also result in accelerated degradation of the rotor material due to excessive heat. It's the same reason why high friction and high heat cause breakdown of machinery. The friction-bearing surfaces of the machinery are literally transformed by the added heat and are no longer able to resist wear as designed. Once a CCM rotor's surface is "chinked" in any way its days are numbered.

At any rate, I think you'll agree that FCars are best enjoyed in temperate climate with colder, denser air free of abrasives. If you live under conditions like those found in Dubai, you have to deal with higher rates of attrition in equipment. I'm not saying the brake wear on this 599 is normal but the car is a 2007 and only its owner(s) can confirm how the car was driven.

 

I have a friend that owns a Mercedes SLR. He went through the same thing. I thought he was kidding when he told me what it cost, but he was not. Bentley is, apparently, offering a lifetime warranty on their ceramics. I'll bet others will fall in line eventually.

 

Michael- Believe it or not, they have garages over there just like we do. Plus when there is a sandstorm coming, they do not drive their Ferraris, just like we avoid thunderstorms.

 

Yes Terry I know, that's why I had said it wasn't the garage's fault. They're just trying to maintain the cars with necessary service. But the car is a 2007 so it's way past warranty and free service. Car owners can lapse on maintenance.

You and I would not take our cars out in a storm and we take good care of our cars and property but that says nothing about all Ferrari owners. Just look at the fallout of the sub-prime real estate meltdown. People miss payments on their homes and cars, are thinking of or have already skipped town. Dubai is a modern city of mainly ex-pats whose work contracts/visas can suddenly expire for one reason or another.

I have a friend who worked in Dubai and about 3 years ago he told me things were looking grim and people were moving to Abu Dhabi for greener pastures. Have a look at these two abandoned beauties in Dubai:

Looks like a 550 left in a garage.

Image Unavailable, Please Login

This one had a story behind it - "…$1.6 million Ferrari Enzo sitting abandoned for 20 months gathering dust in Dubai. The owner had amassed a total of $30,000 in parking and speeding fines and rather than pay decided to flee the country. The catch is that in Dubai failure to pay fines is an offense that can get you jail time so if he had showed up to pay the fines he would have ended up in prision…"

Image Unavailable, Please Login

How about this Porsche someone tried to cover up in the streets? No plates even so this may be "long term storage".

Image Unavailable, Please Login

Here is the link to the webpage titled "So in Dubai, the number of Abandoned Luxury Cars lying around is kind of a Problem"

Some ex-pats have a very short time horizon on commitments - gold rush mentality. Not surprising how they would treat leased cars.

 

as soon as i read the opener, i thought the same as '4th gear'.

the rotor wear is due to location. grit has gotten in there between the pads and rotor and wore down the ceramic. standard ferrari rotors only have a thin layer of ceramic anyway.

btw, this is how i ruined my front rotors on the cs. one trip into the kitty litter off track, and then they were cooked.

 

MATE IF the Discs are used as they say in PPI that car has +/- 70 000 Kilometers

 

Jorge

These post about the discs are 6 and 8 years old.


Daniel

 

As long as we're here, I just looked up ceramic discs on Eurospares and the price was not bad at all.