David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

True.

 

Let's start with this-

"Your description of what is being done with 0858 reminds me of what has been done to every 250 GTO"

*EVERY* 250 GTO?
No. Sorry. Wrong.

Then we'll move on to this-
"Is what David Piper and Talacrest really doing with 0858 so much different than what was done to 0846??"

Are you kidding?
For someone who has the files that you have can you really not see the difference?

0846: An original chassis.
As for the rest of the car, I would direct anyone to Jim's extraordinary documentation available on this site.
But for the purpose of our discussion and your attempt to find equivalence between 0846 and 0858, Jim started with the remains of what was and then went from there.

Your assertion that Jim restored 0846 to a P3/4 instead of a P3 (based on your claim that it was because of the Daytona victory in P3/4 spec) is false and wrong.
0846 was restored to P3/4 spec because
THAT'S HOW IT LEFT FERRARI.
They built a P3.
As time passed, to keep it competitive, they modified it to the spec of the P4's, thus it became a P3/4.

0858: An original, surviving 350 Can Am manufactured by Ferrari.
A car Ferrari built as a 330 P4 which they later modified into a 350 Can Am.
That's how it left Ferrari and that's how it remained over all these decades.

All citations on this thread (not limited to you) attempting to compare 0858 to; 250 GTO Series I vs Series II, 330 P3 vs 330 P3/4, and any other model that SF built in period and then changed in period are simply red herrings.
They are attempts to justify the conversion of an original historic competition Ferrari from what it IS into a Frankenstein-attempt of what it once was.

People in favor of what's happening ignore the smoking gun in this sad saga: the Why(?)
0858 is being cannibalized for one reason only.
MONEY.
That's it.
Throw history in the trash in an attempt to make an easy buck.
Pathetic.

The 330 P4 is a landmark in the land of beautiful cars.
If anyone wants one, talk to Lawrence Stroll and make him an offer he can't refuse.

Other than that, you're out of luck.
There *were* three.
There's only *one* left and they ain't making any more of them.

Lastly, in your refusal to acknowledge any difference between a body made on an english wheel and one hand hammered as per original, you indict your own powers of DISCERNMENT when it comes to being able to evaluate the work being undertaken.

I'm a master craftsman. I restored historic buildings for a good portion of my adult life before changing careers. Craft and historic preservation are important to me.

Your allegiance to Mr. Piper raises an important issue:
It is important to note that there's a tremendous difference between owning and working on cars for decades- and having any level of Mastery in either the understanding or execution of the task at hand.
Time in and of itself does not necessarily accrete Skill. It just doesn't work that way no matter what one wishes.
You cannot simply be the best at something because you've been doing it longer. Furthermore, the best haven't necessarily been doing it the longest.

Fchat member 335s may be a good example of highly skilled craftsman and one who's highly experienced over many decades, BUT, just because Mr. Piper has been in the game for as long as he has doesn't not afford him automatic master status when it comes to his abilities.
Maybe he's everything you want him to be, but there's nothing on this thread that establishes that as fact.

 

Brilliant, well written post.

 

I concur fully, Dave.


Onno

 

I do too.

 

So do I but somehow I think it won't matter.

 

Hard to confuse the two.
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Agreed. : (

 

You and 250GTTDFZagatoCoupe are probably right on the money.
But here's how it will matter:
I'll sleep better.

Best,
Dave

 

If there is a 250 GTO with its complete original body show me. Of course there are real differences between the 0846 and 0848 stories.That's not the issue. As I said in a previous post I hope the Piper/Talacrest effort turns out to be as successful as Jim's with 0846.It appears from what you have said you know very little about David Piper. Take some time to go back over his over his 50 year career while waiting for 0858 to finish up and show some knowledge of the other man.Then do some more work on the English wheel.This is being used world wide in custom body work and from what I understand the are ways of finishing the job that make it come out very near to an original hand hammered job. And please in the future quote me correctly. tongascrew

 

Okay George. You win. Is that what you want? I give. You win. I was wrong and you were right. Does that make you happy?
Never mind the fact that what you've just posted contradicts your own quotations in my referenced post. Never mind the fact that everything I said in my third section titled 'Lastly' you either completely skipped over or went in one of your ears and out the other without so much as a ping.
I have no qualms with Mr. Piper as an individual and in fact DO know a good deal about him and his history. That doesn't alter by one iota the salient points I raised in 'Lastly' or the final sentence where I stated -as is fact-
"Maybe he's everything you want him to be, but there's nothing ON THIS THREAD that establishes that as fact."
In other words, in your tireless support of Mr. Piper, you have failed to make the case for his EXPERTISE.

But what do I know. I'm just a master craftsman who has a prodigy level of hand work.

Let's just stick with you asserting that I (clearly) know very little of Mr. Piper AND therefore must be wrong AND therefore Mr. Piper, surely, definitely, must be without a doubt a MAESTRO.

I'm with Jim.
Moving on.

 

No amount of bickering adds to our knowledge and this thread is going in ever decreasing circles.

It seems that the owner of 0858, who presumably cooked up this rebody, either with or without input from John Collins of Talacrest, has escaped all censure, whereas poor old 'Pipes', who is just the hired gun, seems to be the target of all vitriol.

And by the way, Piper's ability as a craftsman is probably neither here nor there. I imagine he employs someone to actually do the bodywork and much else.

 

uh??? You have all this documentation on 0846, yet you claim 'it is on the same track' as what is being done to 0858?

Let me make this easy: if Jim had got a hold of 0846 with her original body and decided to remove that body in order to replace it with a replica P3-body, than it would be remotely on the same track. The only P3/4 would be butchered into a replica of what it once was (a P3), the same way the only (remaining) 350 Canam is butchered into a replica of what it once was (P4). In both instances, you can never return to what the car once was and keeping it original at the same time. I don't care what Piper tells you.

 

The person that David Piper has employed to recreate the P4 bodywork for 0858 is extremely competent, which I was told by a long serving and highly regarded employee of Maranello Concessionaires.

 

This seems appropriate for this topic

[ame=http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XSDYCGIXxvI]Van Halen - Runaround - YouTube[/ame]

 

Surely there comes a time when everything must end, I can see and understand the arguments of both sides. A P4 is an amazing car although now a 350 Can Am has been destroyed to make another P4 and the car will always have a tarnished history per se. So surely it must be time to stop the circular discussion and leave it as it is. Is there anything to be gained with the continuation of the discussion?.

 

I think this stopped being a debate many pages back.

Thankfully there are more interesting threads to read.

 

At the paint shop yesterday. From Talacrest's FB page.
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Well written post, and I completely agree.

M

 

Given the pics the damage has been done.

 

Will it be finished in waterbourne materials? Might as well.

Best,

Jack.

 

OK, so by your definition how many original Ferrari race cars still exist today? 5? 7? 9? Because thats about the number you end up with if you measure the rest of them by the same standard.

 

The difference is those othrs are not starting form an intact base, they are by nature rebuilds or recreations with Data plates, that is how they arrived at the present time. So yes there are very few origional cars left and one destroyed cant be recreated because origionality and patina are a funtion of time.

Whereas to use your term the can am car is one of the few 5.7.9 original cars, so surely this has more value if not $$$ value than chopping it up and putting replica bodywork on. That I think is the heart of the debate.

In many threads I get the idea that there are two streams to ferrari ownership. One is primarily concerned with the $ value of the machine and what that value represents or projects. The other stream values the machine for what it is. Obviously there is some crossover.

For those who value the machine for what it is, an origional race car from the late 60's still intcat is always going to have greater value than a messed about car, and origionality cant be restored in or replicated.

But yeah a lot of the historic cars out there are various degrees of tool room copies or recreations with Data plates, which through neglect attrition etc is how they arrive at the present time. So why turn something origional into one of those?

 

Agreed. But its still a joke that some people call this car a replica considering the original Ferrari content that the average surviving race car contains today. Which is not a lot.

 

I didn't know there was an owner unless it was Talacrest. Pray tell who is this? tongascew