David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

I am getting good on the typo thing. tongascrew

 

There are two important issues here.I will try to explain these with out personal preferences.First which of its two incarnations should 0858 preserved as.This discussion is ongoing and it is going to be up to the restorers to convince us that theirs is the right decision and that they carried it out as well as is possible. Secondly if the restorers had restored the car from what it was when put into storage back to how it was when it left the factory for the last time could this have been done to a degree of perfection to please both the judges and the market place. It must be remembered that 0858 received major changes during the period between the fall of 1967 and when Piper sold it to Medlin in 1971.Let the discussion begin. tongascrew

 

lol

 

Preserve is a bad word for your argument.

Preserving the car would be leaving it as a Can Am. In this version there are the most real Ferrari parts as can be since it last left the factory.

Any way you cut it, with this "recreation" there is less genuine 0858 left whereas just recently there was one hundred percent or as close to as it could historically be.

 

If the above was the case, can anyone elaborate? The changes must have been reverted back to 350 Can Am spec as it last left the factory for it to have been Ferrari Classiche Red Book attested in 2010.

 

I'm the same as you. It's not like a GTE to a GTO. This was once and still by default is that magnificent P4.

There is not another P4 out there holding that ID and using the balance of the redundant parts when it was converted. They are the same car. Altered by Ferrari but it's a P4 under there. That's its essence.

The chassis is the demarkation point. It's there and it cannot be argued.

Me? Couldn't care less about classiche. Some dude decrees there what it is. All hale classiche and their rubber stamp!

So what! We all know the score.

But it needs an authentic body. Save that I'm for a P4 regress. I don't think this is uber sacrilege. The Can Am is forgettable as a racer and styling wise a miss compared to what it was.

Do it right and I'm not upset at it's refit.

Imagine you had a great memorable WW2 Spitfire that ended up with a different Merlin motor and body parts in civvy service in the late 40's/50's. Crop spraying in Spain!

WHAT CONFIG WOULD YOU WANT IT TO BE?!

 

Nice work The example of the Spitfire is a gem. Just don't forget the Hurricane.Not as pretty but a lot easier to build and repair.The more we can learn about D P and the Talacrest project the more his reputation can help the project with 0858 along.I really hope his wife gets her book done. I should be a great read. tongascrew

 

Just how much original P4 do you actually think there is to be found under there?

Jim has already addressed just how little, if anything.

 

The one that left the Supermarine factory.

 

to me it is not about what one wants it to be, but what it actually is. 0858 is a 350 Canam. If you want it to be a P4, the best you can get up with is a 350 Canam with a replica P4 body. How that is preferable to a completely genuine 350 Canam, I will never understand.

 

It doesn't matter to me. It's its airframe. It IS that P4. It has been altered but it is that Le Mans chassis.

Ok, Ferrari butchered this P4 in house. That is the problem here. That Ferrari did it. If anyone else did it then no problem. Rip it to bits.

It's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Hacking up a straight old thing is not everyones cup of tea. That's a given.

Me? as I said prev, GIVE IT TO CLASSICHE! We're talking huge money here anyway so what's a mil or two letting them do it right.

The problem is the execution of the job. It's not good enough for a what? $20M car.

There's plenty of butchered Rolex Double Red Sea Dwellers out there! Guess what? Rolex themselves did most of the damage in the 70's/80's binning the double red face and hands at the time of service!!!

Not unlike what the works did to this P4...

 

...but you don't have a situation whereby a prominant Rolex owner/trader is throwing away a genuine Rolex service dial, making his own double red dial incorrectly and pretending its something it isn't.

Worse still, consider the scenario whereby many years ago Rolex thought that double Red Seadweller was useless to them so at service converted the dial, case and movement to leave the Rolex factory as a Milsub (imagine it was deemed less worthy in this hypothetical situation) instead and the dealer now wants to destroy that Milsub history. Now consider that not only is the watch now wearing a non Rolex dial (made incorrectly in England by the dealer), but also a large portion of the milsub parts are to now be removed in favour of non Rolex parts to revert the watch back to something it can never be again.

Its still a compromised Rolex with most of its genuine double red seadweller history lost and its milsub history destroyed because a dealer thinks there is a market for a Rolex Red seadweller frankenwatch.

 

At the end of the day it all boils down to one's perception. I, for one, having seen both the P4s and 350 Can Ams race in anger would have preferred that the 350 remain as it was, successful or not, as an original factory Ferrari. Simple as that.
Ferrari modified it, Ferrari sent it to the U.S., doesn't matter who's beckoning it was, when it left the Ferrari factory in 1967 it left as a 350 Can Am.

As far as il commendatore was concerned, that was that. As a P4 it had served its purpose, it had won the World Championship of Makes in 1967, defeating the might of Ford. What happened to the P4s afterwards were of little or no concern to him. The rules had changed for 1968 and anyone who has studied racing history should know Ferrari's mindset with regards to the cars of his which had achieved their racing status.

As a final thought, there are those who do not know who may look upon this car as a P4, and then there are those, that know, who will look at this car and say " why...?

Adios amigos.....I'm done here.....

 

It's been said many times here, by Jim G amongst others, that Classiche would not certify it as a P4. Given that the car has been in the Galleria for many months around 2010 and was at the 2009 RM Auction to be sold certified by Classiche as a CanAm, I think it is very unlikely that Ferrari Classiche have not been approached by the current owner, and likely have been approached first.

The logical conclusion seems to me that the current owner wanted a P4 and nothing else, and Classiche would not give it to him. Therefore he went with DP as a second choice. Reasonable conjecture, but of course not 100% sure what really happened.


Onno

 

This is extremely well stated and GTE and I almost never seem to agree on anything, so that's got to mean something.

>8^)
ER

 

Because any P3.P4,P3/4 including the three 0900 is preferable to any Can Am, Lola, McClaren,Ferrari etc. tongascrew

 

Some day someone is going count up the number of these posted in this thread.They are fun to read and think about but one can't come to any factual conclusions based on these. tongascrew

 

In all fairness I think the post below is about as factual as one can get on this matter.

 

Consider your statements,[1] "To me....How that is preferable"[2] "To me....actually is..."[3] "If you want....the best you can get.."[4]"How that is preferable.....". Are any of these facts or factual? Sorry, Facts are things like documented items such as design and construction details, provenance,ownership records,competition results and details,historical modifications and by whome, repairs and restorations and by whome, historical publications,files containing some or all of the above,etc. If you go back thru particularly my earlier posts ''facts" are used where ever available to me.This entire thread is made up largely interesting theories and opinions.The principle problem with David Piper is that almost all of statements about him have little to do with "fact" and are based strictly on unfavorable statements and opinions about him with no factual basis or knowledge. As I have said before, I sincerely hope the efforts by D P and Talacrest are as detailed and correct as those of a certain "Napolis" who has set the bar as high as it may ever go. tongascrew

 

Talacrest has posted a group of pictures from January 2013 of preparation of the new body work for 0858 including fitting the original doors and a few other original pieces.I realize one can't get to much from photos though some of these are quite detailed but it would be interesting to get some opinions. tongascrew

 

Twenty four hours without a post.
Can we go for forty eight?


Not you George, the thread in general.

 

I feel much better now. George

 

Do I hear 72?

 

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words...
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Not to me, I'd take Donohue's 91730 Can Am. Not as pretty as the P cars, but something to be said for the ultimate example of unobtainium.