David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

That is debatable, but apart from that, how is 0858 a P4?

It is a 350 Canam. A replica P4-body doesn't change that. It really is that simple.

 

Quote found in Keith Bluemel and Jess Pourret's excellent book Ferrari 250 GTO on page 42. They write - "Due to the ravages of time on the thin 20-22 gauge aluminium bodywork, a number of cars have had to be rebodied, which has often been carried out using rollers to form the intricate curves and shapes. The majority have been very successful, and it would only be by taking them back to the bare metal that the difference could be detected, by the absence of hammer marks."

 

Define 'a number of cars' and I would like to see the evidence to back up their statement too.

Any rebodied GTO also has a distinct advantage that this project does not...they would still be GTO's underneath.

Underneath this rebody is a Can Am.

 

True.

 

And for better or worse the market place will have the final say.What will be interesting will be how many and who will actually get into the bidding. tongascrew

 

Who originally designed, built,assigned s/n, 0858,raced as a factory entry and modified the bodywork the first time all as a P4 and later the same year modified the car's body work and not much else of signifigance to be raced in North American Can Am? The Scuderia Ferrari under the direction of Enzo Ferrari who referred to the car as a Can Am for publicity purposes only. Though all this the car officially on paper remained 0858 P4. In December of 1967, after a complete failure in Can Am, the ownership of the car was transferred to Chris Amon for carnet reasons and exported to Australia as 0858 P4 for David Mackay's Scuderia Veloce with crates of P4 spares and another modified spare P4 engine[not verified] In mid 1968 the car was sold to Paul Hawkins's Team Gunston still as 0858 P4 where further and more significant mechanical and body modifications were done The rest is history but all the above is well documented. So where are there any significant reasons to remember 0858 P4 as a Can Am contender in which it was an embarrassing failure???.Keeping the CanAm body with but not on the car is more than enough. tongascrew

 

In that it will only involve one buyer I'm not sure that traditional market measurements apply.

 

True.

It is.

 

To me the sporting statistics are secundairy. What matters is the history. Even unsuccessful competitioncars deserve to be applauded in today's world. And aren't the unloved cars not usually much more interesting than the rather obvious ones?

Anyway, once the factory converted 0858 to 350 Canam specifications, it stopped being P4. Apparently, the factory felt chassis 0858 could be of better use in Canam-specifications. The could have built a Canam-car from scratch but they decided to sacrifice the chassis of 0858, thus ending her life as a P4 and starting her life as a 350 Canam. Mind you, the car as been a 350 Canam for the greater part of her life and didn't do too shabby when entered by Team Gunston.

It simply can't be converted back to a P4, at least not outside of the factory.

 

Where is it documented that Ferrari only modified the body of 0858 and 'not much else of significance'?

Genuinely fascinated to read of that if true.

 

In the conversion to Can Am configuration, much less of the P4 bodywork on 0858 was replaced than you may think. It retained the P4 doors and sills and it's my guess, which I'm happy to be corrected on, that much of the remaining P4 centre section was just modified, not replaced? Only the front and rear aluminium clips were wholly replaced with sections in glass fibre.

 

It's not true.

Unless you think the engine, chassis, suspension, wheels, tires, fuel tanks, weight and balance among other things aren't significant.

 

I am not going to do your homework for you.Go back thru this thread. It's all there. tongascrew

 

Yes the P4 engine was increased by 200 cc and a small section was added to the back of the chassis to support the rear of the new Can Am body. According to what I have these other changes were made later mostly by Hawkins in South Africa Now if you can doccument that these other changes were made a S F please do so.Please also document that the second engine that came with the car was a P4 and modified how? The wider rear wheels/tyres we know were added by Hawkins and so the wider rear bodywork. as well as the changed fuel tanks.Of course the weight and balance changed with the Can Am body It had already changed when the car was changes into a Spider before the even lighter Can Am body was fitted.All this is secondary to the fact that 0858 P4 should and is being returned to its original magnificent P4 self. By the way please read my comments regarding the thread about the traditional bodywork still being done. If so, yes a good question is why Talacrest apparently never considered this as an option. Once the car is completed,and there is nothing to stop this,then you and Sal and whome ever can go over the car at its first public apperances. Sort of like Henry Higgins taking Elisa to the ball.Yes I am sure you will behave far better than that dreadful 'Hungarian" tongascrew

 

Do you think 0846 is in fact still a P3?

 

You sure about that? Isn't that what usually happens?The real question is how many serious bidders will get involved? I can name two who won't be there not including yours truly. tongascrew

 

Include me out as well and make it three.

 

0858 can and is right now being restored/rebuilt,what ever, back to the beautiful and reasonably successful P4 she was originally.And when she was a total failure in Can Am was then sent off the second rate events in Australia and South Africa.Look at the competition.Can't compare with Can Am.As for the "greater part of her life" it was spent in a storage shed. True her successful life ended when the P4s were shelved by the new FIA regulations which E F boycotted. The efforts to preserve the P series just continues with 0858. Back to the pure original may not be possible but it has to be better than a failed Can Am car and a Springbok series machine which it appears few in a position to really acquire the car want. tongascrew

 

Putting an english wheel body on 0894, cutting the frame and having Piper look in his spare parts bin does not magically make this Can Am a P4 again.

It will just look like one from a distance.

 

True.

 

You put too much value in the success of the car. You'd even sacrifice authenticity for it. It isn't about the success. It is about the car.

 

Typo on the c/n in your post. You meant 0858 and typed 0894.
Best,
Dave

 

Correct.

Thanks.

 

Good for you. You got that right. As for the rest. Get out from under the rock. There is much more to this car as a P4 than there will ever be as a Can Am failure and a 25+ year barn find. tongascrew

 

Well, I took another look and cannot resist the chance to write the one thousand three hundredth post on this thread! It reminds me of the quip of a lawyer member of a State Commission in response to the remark that the state legislature in Albany NY has to act on the issue. She said - if we wait for Albany to act on this, we will wait forever, if then.

I'm inclined to believe that my above is the first post on the thread with a new thought since just after Mr. Tchaikovsky completed his 1812 Overture. ;-)