David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

You are so wrong. Jim would qualifies as a "person who matters" on this subject, owning both 0846 and 0858. He as willing to buy 0858 but his offer was declined. He is however not willing to have anything to do with a Piperized 0858.

now tell me, which persons that matter have it the other way around? This crowd shouldn't be too big.

 

If this isn't resolved fully in another three thousand posts I'll have to consider unsubscribing.

 

a-HA!! my kind of guy!!!

 

It's an interesting topic and one important to the hobby but you've got to keep perspective and humor.

 

Really? What would one otherwise think??

 

The car, after it left the Ferrari factory in 1967 and after the World Championship of Makes, was re-done by FERRARI, do you get that? By FERRARI as a Can Am car. The mods done to it were done by FERRARI and no one else. This car until recently was a FACTORY modified P4 into 350 Can Am livery. It's no longer a P4 and hasn't been since
1967. There are those that have absolutely no sense of history nor what a P4 is and I can count on you as one of them.

 

Still beating a dead horse on page 67
We really need the Beating a Dead Horse Icon for these situations - LOL

 

This do?
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Especially in light of Paul 500's statement that this is: "being carried out by the world leading expert in the type." despite the indisputable fact that the replica "P4" body Piper made for this Butchery is made using totally incorrect techniques for a P4 body.

 

Not to mention being laid on incorrect underpinnings. I'm guessing an expert would know the difference.

 

What incorrect underpinnings?

 

Can Am Modified Chassis, Wheels, Motor amongst other things. AKA no longer P4 but currently Can AM

 

Well I don't know, perhaps it has something do with the fact it has a Can Am engine not a P4 engine.

 

If I were to list all the racing cars that evolved in their lifetime and have since put back to a previous, more successful spec I would need to spend all day writing them down, why is this one so suddenly different that it needs such vitriol attached.

My god if you applied the same logic to all the pebble beach cars regarding how they have been rebuilt, it would be a very quiet weekend on the lawns.

Lots of latent bullying and personal attacks on people going on in this thread as well which I am very surprised has been allowed to continue.

The old saying about leading a horse to water, but not being able to make it drink is very apt.

I will answer my own questions, if anyone disagrees then please prove it via facts not insults.


Are there any other cars out their purporting to be chassis 0858?

No.

Is this chassis fundamentally the same one used by 0858 in period?

Yes, the cars chassis is the same one that all the famous bums originally sat in, the steering/suspension/braking/dials/electrics etc etc etc are all still the same although may have been modified over time, which would not make common sense to revert back.

Does anyone dispute that this car started life as 0858?

No.

Was 0858 a Ferrari P4?

Yes.

Is there anyone outside ferrari that knows the P4 model better than David Piper?

No - he has fettled and raced them in period, and ever since.

Is this just a chassis plate rebuild claiming to be the original car like many other ferraris that exist out there?

No, the vast majority of the components inc the original chassis are still the same ones, even the engine is of the same type just modified. Its could be reverted back but why do that when its essentially the same, unless the historic race regs dictate the need.

If this car had been rebodied in period as it is now, would it have mattered at all back then?

No - its an old racing car, they were slapped back together in period, and were functional items not the works of art they have now become. Just because some old Italian *** in mouth has not roughly beaten it out is that such a real stumbling block, again apply the same logic as those cars that get shown at pebble beach in any opposite viewpoint.
The paint will be applied by a different method as well, does that then mean that any ferrari painted since it was new, and not by the initial italian painter is no longer original, therefore is now a fake/copy?

Sensible discussion gents not mud slinging for the sake of it. No one on here knows me, and I don't know any of them and I don't feel the need to be derogatory even to those who don't agree to my view.

 

Blimey, tough crowd. Is it really necessary to berate someone for daring to have a different opinion?

And the, elsewhere, mentioned point that fewer posts somewhat weakens an individuals point is laughable.

 

It's just a scratch!!!

 

Interesting post. Why was the car not sent back to Ferrari? Surely if all you say is true they would be more than happy to reconvert this car to the P4 spec seeing as the changes are so "minor"

This was THE LAST 350 CAN AM, would you modify the Mona Lisa? Yes, the two are not the same but arguably this Can Am was unique in that it was original from the period in which it raced.

The fact it has a Can Am engine doesn't make it a P4 in my eyes, you however may disagree with this.

I also recall reading that substantial chassis modifications were made to the P4 to make its a Can Am car thus I fail to see how it could be "the same chassis".

Lets see how the story unfolds.

 

True. Those pesky Tipo stamps that Ferrari used.

Tipo 603C/350 Can Am Suspension set up Suspension springs and disk brakes

 

Please could you tell us where the chassis is actually stamped tipo 603C, Jim?

The chassis section at the back that was removed, which was just a support for the P4 spare wheel that a Can Am car would not need, was the only chassis frame difference between tipo 603 and 603C, and is easily replaced, as are changing the suspension set up, springs, disc brakes and fuel tanks back to P4, tipo 603 spec.

 

A lot of banks get robbed too.

There's a difference between honest, expedient, in period,modifications and those done for strictly commercial reasons when the car's competition career is long over.

People can do what they want with their property. But not with history.

 

True.

 

Some excellent avoidance going on here, blinkers well and truly on.

I am sure once the cars finished it will settle nicely into the classic racing scene like all the others before it that have had an interesting and evolved racing period and then been restored back to an earlier life, and it will still be around a long time after we are all gone.

Regarding ferrari restoring it, I am sure if they really had any interest in retaining it as a Can Am they would have purchased it themselves for posterity, but there is no money in that is there.

I am sure some will be glad to know I dont have much more to say so will let this debate drag on now some key facts have been presented.

 

Amen.

 

True.

You still haven't explained how your statement that this is: "being carried out by the world leading expert in the type" jives with the indisputable fact that the replica "P4" body Piper made is made using totally incorrect techniques for a P4 body.

There are a lot of experts who know how to make a replica "P4" body using period correct techniques or use period correct techniques to restore real P4 bodies as Bob Smith's restoration of 0856 or my restoration of 0854 clearly shows.

 

'Was' being the keyword here. 0858 was a P4. Even 2735GT remained a 250 GT SWB in every sense of the word, even when it got the Drogo body.

You wonder why they don't do a better job then.

Why all the hasle? As a 350 Canam, 0858 is a no stories car. The last remaining 350 Canam. Just the smallest sense of history would prevent to do anything to the car.