David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Original panel and paint. Sadly because of corrosion we couldn't leave it like that but it gives you an idea of how original hammered panels look. Note how thin paint is and no bondo.

Note how thin original alloy is.

Note how paint looked in the day.

Note how much paint and bondo was added over the years and how thick and plastic like panel became.
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Jim, have you weighed 0846 and 0854? How close are they to their "official" weight originally?

I'd wager that Piper's FrankenFerrari weighs a good bit more than a real P4. Hell, it looks like it's carrying 100lb of Bondo alone.

 

I'm not understanding one thing. If this can am is so special, why did nobody buy the car as it was years ago? Why wasn't it bought by a person like Jim?

Is this car really as important as this thread makes it out to be? Was it over priced? And if so why was it over priced. It is/was the only one in the world.

Now that it is being converted, interest in it seems to be gathering steam.. Why?

 

Not really no..I was just posting an observation. It seems this "very important part of Ferrari history" has sat around for years with no buyers..now that it's being converted its a disaster..

Tell me about this Walter fellow..maybe it will jog a memory..

 

Sorry. I deleted my previous comment thinking that wasn't the question you were asking.

There's alot to tell about Walter Medlin so it is prob best handled with a Google search, a comfortable chair and your favorite beverage.

Basically he was a pretty colorful collector of these cars before anyone was interested in old cars. He had quite the collection with an interesting story behind them being un earthed. There are several threads on Ferrari-Chat and other places. Basically he had this Can Am tucked away for many years. But his story is one worth reading and as far as I'm concerned only adds to the history of this car in it's Can Am Form.

If you've ever heard of the barn collapsing on a collection of Ferrari's story in Florida that barn and it's contents was owned by Medlin.

 

Yes indeed I heard of that barn!!

All well and good, but why is this seemly unwanted Ferrari, now the subject of such debate? As I understand, it has been for sale a few times with no takers, so if piper sees reason to put it back to a p4 to generate interest (which seems to be working quite well) what's the harm? Nobody seemed to want the thing in the first place. Now it's a crime what he is doing? I don't get it..

 

Showing my ignorance here but isn't lacquer normally applied after to make paint shinier, and not to dullen it or is the wet paint mixed in with the lacquer and then sprayed/applied together to achieve the dull effect? Hmm, if the lacquer is applied later, would Ferrari have gone to the trouble to actually use lacquer to dull the paint? I have read that when Bob Smith resprayed 330 P4 0856 in 2004 that he simply didn't buff or sand the paint to achieve the 1967 appearance.

 

Yes. Their weight and balance is as they were on the day. Bondo can add a lot of weight and that's why Ferrari kept the paint thin. They also wet sanded the paint between races to brighten it as lacquer paint unlike modern paint soon dulls. (basically oxidizing)

 

I don't think the Can Am was ever unwanted. My guess would be that the car was safe from harm's way so no reason to raise a stink. But now that it is getting chopped up people are upset. There are plenty of cars that are not in the spotlight but would be instantly if people decided to all of a sudden hack them into another car.

 

Laquer paint is a bit different from just lacquer. Very hard to get a car painted in it these days because of environmental regulations, from what I understand. Nitrocellulose isn't exactly a healthy substance.

The idea is that race cars don't need thick coats of paint, so spray them with base layer, and then a thin layer of lacquer paint and they are good to go. Lacquer used back in the day is thinner than paint used today. It was no extra effort, it was just how things were done back then. But I'm no expert, either.

 

We're dealing with a few separate issues here.

1) That the car was put up for sale in its original, factory certified 350 Can Am form and received a high bid of 5MM Euro, from Jim Glickenhaus.

Someone did want the car.

2) That the high bid was a no-sale.

The owner/auction house gambled on the belief that they could sell it in its factory certified original Can Am form for over 5MM Euros. The market believed otherwise.

3) That the car remained unsold until Talacrest bought it, and decided to rebody it with a replica P4 body made incorrectly on an english wheel by David Piper's organization - owners of the factory drawings of the P4s.

This decision was made at the dealer's request, and not at a buyer's request, therefore it can be deduced that this move is yet another gamble to see if they as a seller can achieve a higher price based on a few romantic but incorrect (since it is a replica and no longer a P4) notions that the car is being "brought back" to a more well known previous iteration.

4)That the car sits unsold, having been modified into a frankenstein car with no claim to factory certification, having received rumored high bids of over 15MM dollars, while offers for an original factory P4 as high as 40MM dollars are being denied.

Now it seems even less people want it. And it's asking price is even further out of base with the market.

Piper is only a hired hand in this case, from what we know he has no financial interest in the sale of this car other than the payment for his services as a "restorer".

 

Thanks, I thought that it was clear lacquer, including nitrocellulose, that gave a glossier effect and was used as a sealant preventing oxidation. However, I have also seen clear lacquer yellow over time.

 

Best example I can think of, because it's the one I'm most closely in contact with, is the coating on musical instruments. My brother has a beautiful 1964 Gretsch 6119 Chet Atkins guitar, just like the one George Harrison used at Shea Stadium back in the day. It's got a nitro finish on it, which has almost seeped into the wood. It's no longer Glossy as it would have been back in the day, because the lacquer is weathered out. It has a few rough patches where the laquer basically rubbed off the wood, because of sweat, belt buckles, and other stuff it has encountered along the years.

On the other hand we also have a 2000's walnut finish Telecaster Deluxe made with new non-nitro finishing techniques. The finish on that one remains glossy, yet it has started to flake in some bits. And that flaking is like paint coming off a brick wall. It comes off in pieces, rather than rubbing off progressively. It's more like it's stuck to the wood than "fused" with it. Not so cool.

So i guess Nitro dulls out faster, but it's got its definite qualities.

 

^^^ I understand fully. I had a collection of guitars including Gibson Les Pauls with Nitro Cellulose Lacquer and some modern Fender Stratocasters with the Polyester Lacquer finish.

 

The car has an interesting history

from 2005

This 1967 Ferrari was seized from a Florda businessman, Walter Medlin, for nonpayment of federal taxes. Now it can be yours!

But you will probably need more than $2 million. From The Arizona Republic:

"Oh, it's worth much more than that," said Mike Sheehan, a Southern California resident and longtime Ferrari specialist, who valued the car at something closer to $10 million.
Apparently this is one of only three 1967 P4s in the world.

The IRS has decided to auction the vehicle, even though there are times that a pristine V-12 Ferrari with 450 horsepower and a top speed of 210 mph might come in handy for them.
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Only if Da Vinci would be the one performing the 'conversion' using methods appropiate for the time of her creation. However, that is not very likely to happen in 2013.

 

In relation to genuine 250 GTO's and other P-cars, 0858 as a 350 Canam might have not too much historical significance (I think it does, since Canam racing is a part of Ferrari history, even if they weren't succesfull in it. If succes was the benchmark, plenty of Ferrari's would loose their historical relevancy), but it certainly has much more relevance as a genuine 350 Canam than as a recreated P4. And that is the point. Well, my point at least.

 

+1

 

There's a reason why every Ferrari you will see on the fairway in August has perfect panel gaps and glass-finish paint. Until judges start dinging cars for over-restoration at Pebble, I suspect the practice of bondo skim-coating is here to stay, sadly.

 

Anyone who was around back in the day and attending races can testify to the fact that a 'tatty' appearance was more often than not, especially with racing Ferraris, the norm.

 

Was that the result of the racing cars enduring a hard life or the way they were actually finished from new?

 

An example:


Daytona 1967
Copyright JAG

 

wow, if the wet sanding was to brighten the lacquer or maybe just to get the bugs and fuel stains off the body. Any notes or statements from Ferrari to verify the comment from Napolis

 

It's not news that some folks prefer shiny to authentic.

 

Then lets have the authentic shiny from Ferrari, rather from someone else [for a change]