David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

It is well known Medlin was not quite with the program and had no intention of selling unless some fool would come along and bail him out of his financial mess Then the IRS took it and auctioned it off even that deal failed. tongascrew

 

If there is anything perfectly correct it is only in the eye of the beholder. Your logic goes no further. tongascrew

 

10 million is no $$$ to you? You must be really loaded!

from sportscardigest.com:

 

Maybe that's the case. But that doesn't mean that people didn't want it for 30 years as you stated. It means it wasn't for sale at a price people were willing to pay. And neither is it now. Lets watch and see how long it takes Talacrest to sell it at 25 Mil. Same concept here.

No ones buying a 25 cent candy bar for 2.00. Doesn't mean it's unwanted. Just means that people are only willing to pay fair market value.

 

Yes.

0858 was perfectly correct.

And if not completely perfect as it was in period due to some tinkering by Medlin it was much more so then a repro p4/$.

O858 Can Am's Logic goes the distance.

Whereas re-created 350 Can Am P4/$'s logic does not.

 

1 - I have a little hunch, IMHO Talacrest is waiting to see if todays sale of the Mercedes Benz W196 comes off and if it is huge dollars (or not) new world record etc.. My bet is if the big Merc goes ballistic and I reckon it will they will launch the car at Monterey and again (rightly or wrongly) it will go for mega - bucks. Love it or hate it this is the only one for sale and utilising a Gooding or RM auction as a marketing platform and in P4 spec. is going to get all the money (again like it or not). Probably wont happen but the timing is right innit ?

2 - We do seem to be going around in circles?

 

It's being made into a P4 because they expect to get more money for it.
The rest is rationalization.

 

See ?

How hard was that !

 

1. Single seaters are hard. My estimate is 12 $ on that one. The 275 NART which is a perfect no stories car 20$. This one has been around the block and everyone knows about it being for sale for years in it's Piperised state. I don't see an auction going huge on this one as unlike the Merc and the NART it's no longer no (few) stories or hot off the press.

Some cars age like wine some like fish.

2. Yes

 

Do you think an auction house could get 0666TR type money for this Piperised P4?

 

In the day? No.

In races that are subject to rigorous scrutinizing? No.

In many "Historic" Events where pure replica's are allowed to race it will fit right in.

As an aside if and when it sells personally I don't see Piperised 0858 doing much racing. I also don't see Pebble Beach under it's Ferrari rules or Villa d'Este under it's FIVA rules allowing it to be Judged.

We shall see.

 

While anything could happen I don't see this one being auctioned again. Part of it is TR's are easy great drivers. You could take one on a tour. Having driven a P 3/4 on the night stage of the Historic Targa Florio I'm not sure there are many out there who would enjoy driving a Mechanical FI 350 Can Am motor on the street.
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interesting thread

 

Anything can happen at auction. You get two wealthy types that want to spend money in the same room and you can get an enormous sale. Chris Evans buying the Coburn California, the Whittel Duesenberg or the Batmobile at B-J this year and many others have gone ballistic for this very reasaon......

Auctions otoh can be a fickle mistress, witness any number of hyped cars that just dont spark with the bidders and kinda fizzle out. For this reason and the added benefit of confidentiality a large number of the truly big cars ala 250 GTO's will never go to auction. But after a good 2 years of marketing Talacrest havent done the deal and if they are using borrowed money to fund the trade, just the cost of servicing the loan must make ditching it a worthwhile proposition.

My 2 cents worth.

 

Below is what Jim wrote in this thread on 9.10.12.

So it wasn't Ferrari at all that told you that the engine in 0858 wasn't run in a P4 then was it, Jim? You are twisting what somebody other than Ferrari told you what Ferrari merely would not to him confirm, which is hearsay at best, as what Ferrari told you as a fact. What Ferrari have said is that 0858 cannot be elegible for the Attestation as a car of Historic Interest (white book) as a P4 because the 350 Can-Am engine was never used on the P4 which is true. Though the 350 4.2 litre Can Am specification engine was not used in a 330 P4 they have not said that that 350 4.2 litre engine or unit was not converted and bored out from a 4.0 litre 330 P4.

Furthermore the book in your above link, pictured below by Christian Huet, which you reference as a source of information states that P4s have a tipo 603R gearbox and that the Can Am car has tipo 603 wheels, the same as a P4, both things you have said to be incorrect.
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I agree that the cost of the loan is a factor over the length of time that TC has had Piperised 0858 for sale.

The key for TC is finding a buyer who doesn't care that the replica "P4" body Piper made was made with non period correct techniques, that the engine in the car is not a P4 engine, that the engine in the car has the exact same serial number stampings as Piper's "0900" "P4" Replica, that Ferrari having changed their mind will no longer issue a White Book Classiche Certification for the car, that other details are not P4, and still be willing to pay 25MMUSD for Piperised 0858.

Unless Tonga wins the lottery I don't see that happening.

 

..just one man's opinion!

 

No one is going to pay 25MUSD for 0858(IMO). If someone was going to pay 25MUSD the car wouldn't be available still, but it is. The car has been available for over a year and a half. The last 250 GTO that sold, sold for 52MUSD and it was on the market for less than two weeks. Buyers are out there looking for cars, but only the right cars.

 

Some accusations going on here, many of them unfair. You are basing a lot of what you are saying on abstracted comments. In the case of the first quote, you're ignoring the fact Jim has repeatedly stated here his interest in the car was as a Can Am. I'm quoting this because I'm interested to hear what he has to say about these accusations, and also because he cannot read what you post.

To me it looks like you are clinging to scraps in order to defend your point of view.

 

Q: "To me it looks like you are clinging to scraps in order to defend your point of view."

A: Arent we all ?

Seriously though in reply to Mr. Toolfan

"No one is going to pay 25MUSD for 0858(IMO). If someone was going to pay 25MUSD the car wouldn't be available still, but it is. The car has been available for over a year and a half. The last 250 GTO that sold, sold for 52MUSD and it was on the market for less than two weeks. Buyers are out there looking for cars, but only the right cars."

That could be true except Talacrest only has reach within the close knit Ferrari world per se. Gooding & RM have proven adept at marketing on the grand scale and could get a not very interested bystander with deep pockets that perhaps Talacrest cant reach. If the car did come to auction do not be surprised to see a small item in most of the worlds major newspapers and wide spread advertising. An eskimo living in an igloo will probably know it is for sale. And your russian or saudi billonaire that really doesnt give a flying hoot about any of the issues covered in this thread might just like the car for its colour or might think it will look great in his living room next to the picasso and boom its sold............

Not every Ferrari purchaser is as passionate or as knowledgable as some on this board but then not everybody on this board has 25 million dollars (unless we are talking the zimbabwean dollars LOL).

Excuse my going way off topic but might make my point. In the late '80s/ early 90s the Bugatti Royale #41-150 that was then owned by Imperial Palace and was sent to auction with all sorts of claims and counter claims but two could be essential. Firstly it was costing the owner some 6 figures per year just in interest on the loan that was used to buy the car, so ditch it at auction was chosen. Secondly and not sure of the legality there was some suggestion that the auction was rigged to ensure a new world record and the comment made that if not, why not. After all there is great kudos in selling the worlds most expensive car (publicly sold).

Maybe Talacrest will just keep owning it, hell maybe they paid cash for it and it aint costing a cent to keep owning it.

 

The fact that Piper has made a replica body using period incorrect techniques isn't a scrap.

The photo's of Piper's replica body and the amount of bondo on it vs 0854's original body pre paint aren't scraps.

The fact that the engine in Piperised "P4" is a 350 Can Am engine, that it's block has no P4 stamps, that it has the exact same serial number as the engine in Pipers "0900" "P4" replica and after Piperization won't be to P4 specs aren't scraps. (As an aside compare Piper's replica header tank to the original one in 0856)

Ferrari has changed their mind about issuing 0858 a White Book Classiche since the RM Factory Auction. That's not a scrap either.

 

True, True.

 

If it was a P4 in original order then is the consensus that it would be a $40 million car? so a P4 which is one of only 4? ever made by Ferrari, in not original condition but now visually the same is yours for $25 Mill instead?

Sounds proportionally fair, especially if your a collector and none of the other 3 are available to purchase any time soon, if ever.

Would I buy any of them even if I had the funds? nope so its does not affect me other than as a general enthusiast looking in and glad to see a lovely car coming back to life after so long in neglect, so why are other non potential purchasers so wound up by it. Its no longer Can Am spec bodywise so unless you own a time machine its best to just accept it and enjoy life and any other toys you may be lucky to own and drive and get pleasure from, whatever they may be.

It is what it is, and I am sure someone out there will enjoy owning it soon.

 

There is a lot of sense in your post but I think most of us here share an interest in preserving history where possible and to me it just seems a shame this car wasn't restored to be the best Can Am it could be as apposed to becoming a Can Am with a P4 body and other changes?

For me I look at this and I look at the restoration of 0854 and the contrast is stark. $25mil will buy many a nice Ferrari, multiple nice Ferrari's, so yes its a lot of money but again that's subjective.