Dave, speaking of which...... Are you going to be in the shop on Saturday ??? I am trying to swing through Boulder Friday (tomorrow) ---- but Saturday is far more likely --- would hate to be in town and not get the chance to stop in and say hello
I work enough on my friends Audi(s) to know that I should never own one, even if they come free they are not free. I classify them second to my 1985 Maserati Biturbo.
Yepper --- Systems Engineering has become a lost art. It used to be that they were invaluable to most projects.....possessing good cross-knowledge in all the disciplines. Now, they are bureaucrats, proposal writers, and scrutinizers of Gantt charts.
Wow....is all I can say. Engineering has truly brought us no where? Stfu! I'm sure the 458 is much slower than the 355 or dare I say 250 gto? These new fangled engineers are awful! I'm sorry that it sounds like your daily jobs have beaten the life out of you....but science IS science and any good engineer should respect that. Gold connectors are truly better than 20 year old tin corroded connectors with no clamping force. So cut them off and gold connect at will. But when the tin on gold corrodes ( if science has anything to do with it) you will be asking yourself, " what would have been better?" This in no way disrespects Dave or others that have done the GCK....it simply debates a possible improvement in keeping a Ferrari top notch w no corrosion issues as documented by science. If drive ability is improved in your car...then great...ignorance is bliss! Not sure about the cost of gold....but I figure you can buy a crimper, tin or gold contacts, and extraction tool for $200 and you will see improvement in the function of any car by providing better grounds and less resistance. But, I'm sure this might not match the gold chain and gold tooth mentality I am reading here. Please make sure you get the gold license plate frame, gold valve stem caps, and gold pedals to properly accessorize your ride. And don't forget your vanity plate....18k4me
From what I've read so far in regards to the mating of Gold and tin contacts, the contact resistance is increased only if there is fretting corrosion. Fretting corrosion being friction and material debris and oxidation through vibration or differential thermal expansion effects. http://www.te.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/p316-90.pdf If there is no fretting, there is no issue, or am I missing something here? AMP advises that if there is a possibility of fretting, they have an antifretting lubricant that can mitigate the issue. Perhaps something like this can be added into the kit even though some have observed no corrosion after 3-5 years of installation. The article also mentions if fretting is an issue, perhaps a tin to silver connection would be a more reliable bet, but it is still highly recommended to use the AMP antifretting lubricant in all scenarios. Just a thought.
I definitely have not forgotten. Just distracted . The other projects are still going as I've had to wait for material suppliers for a few important things. Still waiting for some materials actually.
Geez you guys. We went from a thread with potential educational benefit for all, to a thread of entrenched combatants, to a thread of engineer bashing. This is how we loose high quality contributors unwilling to give their learned opinions for fear of instantly having to defend themselves. We need to either keep the emotions and unsubstantiated facts out of the thread and try to learn something or just move this thread to P&R.
Thanks for getting back on topic. Here is the history. Going back at least a decade as the web was growing and bandwidth gave us FerrariLIST and then Fchat we discovered that we were not alone. We were all having the same problems eventhough the dealers were says hey its just you. At that time we knew we were having issues. We had dirt in connectors, corrosion, poor physical plastic to plastic plug to connector, poor wiring, disintegrating cladding and more. So the low hanging fruit was to go after the pin to pin connections. The developing braintrust was all over the map. Dielectric grease, carb cleaner, various jellys, and finally our savior stabilant-22. S22 seemed to work but we found for only a short time. Then the problems were back. We cleaned again and S22 again and it worked. Then the problems came back. S22 became a biannual ritual. There had to be a better way and we were still searching. What worked the best was just plain non-residue forming electrical contact cleaner. Clean and Dry was what you wanted. It lasted the longest until the cycle of corrosion and dirt formation came again. Then rumors of magic from Denver slowly started to appear and here we are today with the gold kit. But getting back to your idea of antifretting lubricant sounds great on paper. In practice lubricant to me means something is staying behind. That something will attract dirt and debris which will increase corrosion or whatever the smooge is that is wrecking our contacts. If this history is of any benefit I think you will find that an antifretting lubricant will be counter productive. But if someone wants to try it let us know how it works out.
No, you are not, Sir. In fact you have pretty much summed up the whole debate, and arrived at the appropriate conclusion . With these type of connectors (pins and sockets snap-locked into housings & the housings snap-locked together) "fretting" is nearly a non-issue. Unless you repeatedly connect / disconnect the connector ---- these connections won't see any significant friction or debris shedding. But, I am sure someone will argue......so, I am going to give up on this one. Everyone is free to do what they believe is correct --- we don't all have to agree on what that is .
My daily job is playing with my grand kids so I have lots of life left in me...and you did say "any good engineer" didn't you. Exactly how does one qualify for that title anyway. And yes science IS science some outstanding some not worth a S&#T. You're not a believer, no problem 'cause it looks like you can do what Dave has done for much less than $200 using tin. Then you could get a tin license plate frame, a tin chain, and oh yes a tin vanity plate that says, hmmmm...TINCUP, yes that's it!
Guys... I had no idea this was such a sensitive topic.....and I am guilty of not using the search function to see that this has already been a nasty debate. From all that I now have read............ 1) there are many satisfied customers with the gold connector kit. THAT is fantastic! No CEL is a blessing. 2) there is NO data to show the Tin UPGRADED clamping force JPT is inferior....but I concede that there is no one here that has done it. Why Ferrari would use a low clamping force JPT in a car that has so many engine out services is beyond me. It seems to me that this is the biggest problem. By methodically changing all of these connections with higher clamping force connectors the GCK can get rid of annoying CEL ghosts. My concern was that the AMP rep was not in support of using gold.....which lead me to read the data that existed on this topic. I would love to have read that Gold on Tin was preferred, backed by data, but I have not found it yet....I only read the contrary. I was simply asking this site..."Did I miss something?" What I have found is a relic of an old battle (that I was unaware of) and a follwing of satisified customers that is saying that their experience and success is what counts. If that is the conclusion, then I am happy with that. I hope that in 20 years someone will post....20 years w the GCK and no CEL!
Been here.... Been there.... Any others? Do folks Really think this is a hap hazard hit or miss? State commonly held beliefs, based on reports written about commercially available, consumer grade parts and then plug that flawed logic into a conversation about when to bail cut hay. These are engineers doing this.... Really? One of the biggest problems here is many have no clue what I am doing, have never seen "a kit", have no idea what is involved.... yet have all the answers. To the "engineers" doing that, this is NOT how you were taught in school and damn sure isnt how you worked in the field if you lasted beyond a few years in it.
Thank you for that post, this is how we should debate a topic where everyone learns, everyone gains and there is a sum total benefit. This is now coming up on 9 years in the making, research beyond belief and working with engineers who are being extremely supportive in assisting to find the best way possible to do things within a realistic set of parameters. These are not nameless experts on the Net, these are people I look in the eyes.... these are successful people in a great many fields, who's credentials would bring about "Whoa's....." I damn sure hope you are right but is that even remotely realistic, even in a pink fuzzy world? Lets attempt to keep this in the context of Reality, enough are already spewing theory. The money saved in 7 years of reduced or no problems would buy an entirely new car for crying out loud! I write the repair orders, do the billing and am hands dirty for dozens upon dozens, check that, hundreds of these cars..... most here have a single data point to reference from, many have NO data point. My goal was to stop the decline in value of these cars and to make the ownership a rewarding one, If it was possible at all. To that end I believe I have made great progress, the 3 original owners for which this kit was designed, still have their cars and are enjoying them, that is what I set out to do, nothing more, nothing less. That I happened to have the side benefit of this knowledge that led to performance gains.... well, thats fun but was never my initial intent. I have invested thousands of hours of unpaid research to this end..... those faulting it have invested a few minutes on Google. These people are not Fixing anything on their own, they are just taking pride in picking apart something they had no hand in designing and frankly have zero knowledge of what we have done. I damn near gave away secrets just typing this.... the REAL questions that surround this have never been asked on this site, and if they were, I wouldn't answer them. Consider that fact when reading some of this, "You can lead a Horse to water but you cant get it to pull its head out of its......" WAIT, no, that's not how it goes.... These critiques of our efforts started for personal gain and ego.... simple as that, those doing it have a track record of the same.
Are you trying to butter me up? ;-) And to others, every profession, trade, job, etc. has zeros and heroes. sh*t gets done by the heroes while the zeros come along for the ride. That's life. And without failure, you cannot have success.
It's all my fault. I'm not proud of it (well, maybe a little). I've had it with the trolls that want to debate everything when the OP just asked for help, not opinion. Sometimes I can be a little harsh, but it's in me nature... [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0fUixs]Denis Leary - ******* (Uncensored Version) - YouTube[/ame]
Well, if we're going musical, [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAZ1BSmAubU]Frank Zappa - Broken Hearts Are For *******s - YouTube[/ame]
Zappa? Easy listening for a "retired engineer"? NOW things are starting to fall into place and make more sense to me.
That would be retired research scientist. Let's really get to know each other. Dave, I love your gold kit. Peace Brother! Life's too short to argue about nothing.... [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4vg2uOR3fk]Jefferson Airplane - We Can Be Together - YouTube[/ame]
just to be an A hole.....thought I would ask a question to the group. "What type of connector is used in the 360 harness?" The ECU looks like it actually has gold contacts. Did Ferrari realize their mistake and possibly use different clamping terminals in the 360 ECU? But what about the harness connectors???? I can't find a pic of them. I know the 355 was a single JPT....is the 360 a double JPT? Please....no cute youtube videos....unless they are showing the 360 harness. My thoughts are this. The 348/512TR/ and 355 were the first generation of ECU cars for Ferrari. They had no real plan regarding the ECU connectors.....or they would NOT have put in the SINGLE JPT clamp connector. To make matters worse, no other car that uses the motronic (VW, BMW, Mercedes et al) bothers to take the engine out so many times breaking the harness connections. (Got to love the cam belts) So after a few engine out services, the connectors weaken and the CELs start. So, did Ferrari get smart? Did they gold plate the 360 ECU? Did they use new crimps in their harness to make better connections? Im just asking for facts if anyone has them.
