Great....but I believe that the ECU pins are critical. These have the low clamping force problem I have been talking about. Was this not clear?
The new upgraded tin JPT pins have the same outer finger that provides the extra clamping force. Look at a pic of an old connector...there are posts of them. They do not have the extra metal fingers. The new style address this problem. Even the GCK pics show this. WAS this not clear? WE have never said to use an OEM pin. Yes that would be crazy. WE ARE SAYING that if you could pick ANY METal .....why would you choose GOLD? The ecu in the 355/348/550 and 512tr are tin.....again the ecu.....that you can not change. So why would you connect gold to it. IS this clear?
My deal.... Aside from suggesting a diagnostic path for ketel to follow, as opposed ad hoc replacement of connectors, ...to discuss the possible effects of gold on tin, or mixed metals in general, over the longer term. Anyone contemplating replacing contacts in their Ferrari or any other electronic component should be aware of the potential benefits and liabilities of such choices and not just take for granted that A is always better then B. Ultimately it is each individuals choice as to what they do. But that decision is better made if better informed. What I read here is all about the benefits of installing these kits with complete dismissal of the potential downside despite the warnings from every reputable contact/terminal manufacture and others in the main stream electronics industry. I don't think anyone would argue that SRI products are cult products regardless of quality. Take their hose kits. They are perfectly fine. I don't see any down side to them at all. They seem to be of very high quality. The only issue that could be raised is, are they really going to work better/last longer than what can be bought at NAPA? That's a choice that the consumer will make. IMO, it's not quite the same with the gold kit since there is a potential downside. Since we all have F355s in common I would think that we would all be intereted in understanding the pros and cons on any modification to our cars. John Kreskovsky Retired research scientist, solid state/semiconductor device physics/material science Co-founder SRA, Inc, Glastonbury, CT (Now closed)
*Open up any TPS from most any Motronic managed engine of the era and tell me what you see. I cant ask you to look at yours because I have no idea if you have a Ferrari but many of the readers of this thread can surely do it for themselves. I met your challenge..... BOSCH and FERRARI did it on a single connector because they had to. THAT alone shows me all I need to know about Gold/Tin at the 25+ (!) year old test point, and I have tested HUNDREDS of these examples.... good enough? *"it’s simply marketing"..... Hmmmm, I dont seem to remember ANY marketing literature from any major European Auto Manufacturer bragging about Gold on Tin on the TPS. They did it because it was an absolute requirement from a safety stand point, the rest of the positions were using Tin because of a planned obsolescence view and a bean counters insistence. Nope, its not marketing, its testing and research. Our own TMans Mondial T Coupe got the entire range of efforts already suggested. To condense years of effort into a single sentence, 1) clean, 2) reclean, 3) re-re clean and DeOx, 4) re-re-re clean and Stab 22, 5) replace all connections with new TIN, 6, 7, 8, and 9) replace with various different commercially available Gold connections, 10) replace all those with what we are now using BUT leaving (2) plugs untouched with the earlier cheaper versions of Gold connections in easily accessible plugs so we could monitor how those were aging over the years. *... and God Bless our right for everyone present to freely speak their opinions BUT make sure to also note the motivation behind them. Plain and simple, the motivation behind these attacks is painfully obvious for most to read and I need not go through that again. * I suggest some reading these endless pages of banter, dig very deep and pull up the research papers on the Gold/Tin mating on the TPS sensors. After you finish that schooling, dig deeper yet and read the cycle life statistics on each and every Tin plated connector available to the public. Once that schooling is finished, read the same on every Gold plated contact and let that research lead you into getting better schooled on why there is such a vast discrepancy between one to the other with the same plating. Dont want to do all that work and just sit at a keyboard to trash those that have? That too is your right, like it or not, I respect that right. By the time everyone reads up and gets schooled on the above topics, we will be well past the 10 year mark with our OWN efforts and research, and those Stupid "simply marketing" mistake efforts done by Bosch, Delphi, Ferrari, Porsche, Benz.................. with be nearing the 35 year mark of Gold on Tin connections. Frankly, if I can get 10-15 years of trouble free service out of these cars without melting Headers and Cats, washing out Cylinder Liners..... and having the emissions boards climbing up our backsides because the cars are all running filthy dirty... that more than exceeds my own wishes and vastly exceeds what Ferrari gave us when the cars were New! I will be toes up long before we reach the 20 year point..... and then I dont give a hoot! Hell, if I make it to the end of this whole project I will be pleased, this kit is not my focus, it is mearly a stepping stone in a vastly bigger effort. Dont want it? Dont like the thought? Dont like the Science? For goodness sakes, RUN and dont get near it! Those making the stink never had thought one about where to look for a problem that plagued them, even those folks are benefitting from our research and efforts with this already!
That was a hell of a summary Dave. Now step back from the keyboard and take a break from this site so you can enjoy your weekend. /Carm Scaffidi (Melo on Facebook)
jaguar had gold + tin on their tps. it lasted about 10 - 12 years before issues started appearing. they had to issue a bulletin to fix their mistake. will you do the same if your kit starts having issues? Image Unavailable, Please Login
BMW gold tin issues also starting to appear. Coolant Temperature Sensor (NTC) Model: BMW E34 (M5) produced from October 1992 to December 1992 Complaint: During production of the S38 engines the incorrect NTC coolant temperature sensors with a blue connector housing and tin plated electrical contacts may have been installed. Due to the vehicles wiring harness which connects to the NTC have gold plated connectors the two metals can corrode which will cause implausible signals to be transmitted to the DME control module, and adversely affect the driving characteristics. Remedy: Utilize the Service Menu of the Dealer Communication System, enter the chassis number of the vehicle involved and based upon the response of the system either proceed with corrective action, or take no action at all. If action is necessary then: -Remove the NTC coolant temperature sensor plug which is mounted in the coolant pipe above the exhaustmanifoldblue connector. -If the contacts on the NTC coolant temperature sensor are tin-plated then replace with a new NTC sensor with gold-plated contacts. -Top off coolant level if necessary. -If the sensors on the NTC are gold-plated the sensor does not need to be replaced. Incorrect Fuel Gauge Reading Model: BMW E36 (3 series) including BMW 318ti produced from January 1995 Complaint: Due to the formation of a non-conducting deposit on the conductor surface of the fuel level sensor, the fuel gauge does not read full after re-fuelling, or the fuel gauge is erratic. Remedy: Remove and replace both fuel level sensors with Gold system sensors. Fuel Gauge Stays Empty after Refuelling/Fuel Gauge Erratic Model: BMW Z3 Roadster/coupe, BMW M roadster/coupe (E36/7). Vehicles produced before December 15 2000 Complaint: After refuelling the fuel gauge will stay on empty or the fuel gauge is erratic. This is caused by a non-conducting deposit being formed on the conductor surface of the fuel level sensor. For the Z3 from September 1998 and the M roadster/coupe FC 2 (Fuel sensor voltage plausibility) will be set in the Instrument Cluster. Remedy: Remove and replace the fuel level sensor with a Gold system sensor referring to repair instructions 16 12 000.
How come they (BMW) aren't recommending replacing the existing gold contact side (and/or the existing tin side) with new tin ---- to create a "fresh" tin-to-tin connection ?? Or, replacing / renewing the old gold side to restore it ?? Sounds like they are not at all concerned about the existing gold having been damaged by fretting as a failure mode --- just the fact that the tin side has corroded autonomously (imagine that.....tin corrodes quickly in that environment ? ).....and, that the gold side is still integral and fully serviceable. Also, that Jag TSB states the same and uses the same corrective action.....so both manufacturers seem to agree on the issue. I got to say I am becoming awfully confused on this whole issue now...... I'm going to back to school and study up on this to educate myself, so that I can possess the same level of knowledge that the folks (Engineers and Technicians) at BMW, Jaguar (i.e., Ford), and AMP do. Oh, wait......that might be backwards . Perhaps, I'll just extend my office hours instead ? Technical expertise is just like **** ---- in that it also flows down hill.
Not sure Im following you. The sensor should be gold which connects to gold wiring harness Some sensors were inadvertently tin Corrosion appears so they want to replace sensors that have tin with gold If the sensor is already gold, then leave as is because you have gold to gold connection So BMWs finding is: Gold + Gold = good Gold + Tin = bad The end result they want is to eliminate the dissimilar metals and its easier to replace the sensor side than cutting into the connector side.
There's nothing hostile about my post at all Dave R, just the facts. He, you, and others don't like the kit. Fine, don't buy it, tell others not to buy it, whatever. We have all read your arguements against the kit (Dave has done more work on all of the myriad of combinations of wire, clamps, different concentrations of metals than any data that has been shown here), but what "yous guys" can't seem to fathom is that this kit works for the owners who have installed them, apparently against all laws of chemistry and physics. The data I presented is that my car was dead and the kit not only brought it back to life but it also gave it about 10 doses of Viagara. So I'm sorry fellas but get it through your thick skulls that the improvements I and others have seen are not PERCEIVED but very very REAL. If I have to replace a kit every ten years so be it, because the money, hassle, time, and frustration that I will have saved in that 10 years will be PRICELESS. Steve Sutley you know the rest
They are also concluding that, in general, tin is undesirable (independent of what it is mated with). And, that gold holds up well (independent of what it is mated with). Therefore....the inference from their position is.... gold - gold = best tin - tin = worst gold - tin = not ideal (but at least both sides don't corrode and go to crap over time) And, the fact that they do not require replacement of the existing gold side means NO SIGNIFICANT FRETTING has been observed.
You're talking about cars well over 10 years old. Read my last post: we don't care if we have to replace a kit every ten years because...etc., etc., etc.
except that the wiring harness is now too short to accept a new kit and the only solution is a totally new harness. this could be all eliminated if proper metals were used in an otherwise outstanding kit. good luck to all who has the kit installed. i hope it lasts through your ownership. ok, i'm officially done now. hmm.. if that's your conclusion and what your interpretation is than.. ah, nevermind, I said i was done.
Thanks John and I think you've laid out your concerns quite well, but for me and maybe others reality is also quite important. This kit works John so I say let the market decide. As for the coolant and fuel hoses, the tests Dave has put these hoses through would amaze you. They are superior. Are they worth it? Let the market decide. Steve Sutley
Nice posts didmano. Good to see an actual TSB alluded to in one of the quotes I posted, but as you see again rather than accept the evidence there is denial. The relevant part - gold on tin leads to corrosion and degradation of signal quality - is ignored and instead the approach to fixing it is questioned. Certainly it would be better to refresh the complete contact, but the point as to why the problem existed in the first place, dissimilar metals in contact, is dismissed. FYI, I just checked the TPS on my 95 355. The TPS has gold pins. Interestingly, the connector has gold female contacts. I'm not finding any mixed metals on my car.
Actually, I was facetiously pointing out the contradiction in their (BMW / Ford) reasoning.... ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ They state that the tin side has corroded --- needs to be replaced. But, they assert that the cause of that failure was "dissimilar metal contact" (presumably they mean the gold & tin). Yet, they also say the gold side does not need to be replaced (implying it has not been damaged). So, I am left to wonder how in the event of galvanic corrosion (or fretting) between two dissimilar metals in contact....... how is it that only one of the metals is degraded ---- the other left intact / uncompromised ?? If the corrosion / degradation was caused in the manner they suggest, then both sides (parent metals) would be compromised. Since, the gold was not ----- the failure mode MUST be that the tin auto-corroded (or reacted with something other than the gold) ----- and, their conclusion of root cause is wrong. Their determination that the tin went bad and needs to be replaced is correct...... but, it was NOT the result of being in contact with the gold. Do you not see the logic there (and here) ? If the gold connector were solid gold and of substantial volume, I could accept a bit of sacrificial erosion (without integral material performance loss), but it is thinly plated ---- so, any surface damage / material loss of the gold plate would damage it ---- but, apparently that did NOT occur. How do you explain / reconcile that ?? Do you have a different interpretation ??
Hi Steve, Exactly what I said about the hoses. But you are still not accepting the point about the gold on tin issue. Certainly installing new connectors will improve things if there are connector issues. That is not, nor ever has been, the issue as far as I am concerned. The issues is what happens down the line. didimano has posted a TSB documenting the issue. It's not a pipe dream. It's up to everyone to make their own judgement. To do that they need unbiased information about the long and short of it.
My apology if I misunderstood you comments. However, I think you are drawing an incorrect conclusion. If the cause were not the contact of dissimilar metals why would the solution be to eliminate it? With galvanic corrosion it is only the anode that corrodes. So only the tin corrodes. Tin oxide would be deposited on the gold but that may be cleared by breaking and reestablishing the new contact. Granted, the better solution would indeed be to replace both sides.
Exactly, And if you read this thread from beginning to end....we are all in favor of gold to gold contact. If any sensor, be it TPS, Water temp, etc had gold ....then the mating connector should be gold. However, like has been said over and over.....your ECU has tin contacts. Do you understand this? (this is the side that you can not change....you are stuck with Tin here, it can't be changed to gold) To change the harness pins to gold and then connect the 2 together is not ideal. (every one following?) And guess what, you will not know for years to come. And that is really OK if you plan to have both feet pointing at the sky in the near future. So, if you are worried that you might run out of harness.....choose wisely.
Geeze you guys are relentless. I'm very interested in this stuff but you guys give me brain damage. I feel so sorry for others with only a passing interest reading 19 pages of endlessness. I am sorry to have contributed. 19 pages later bottom line: we can't accept gold is bad. You can't accept gold kit is working. Maybe we can move on and argue about gun control or abortion. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Is that a gold horse or a tin horse? LOL! If it is a gold horse....for god's sake....don't beat him with a Tin stick.....the pain would be excruciating. Billy, I do appreciate your feedback......what else is there to talk about? Cambelts? At least this is a little more fun.
FBB, this one is for you, my gold loving friend! Flavor Flav says he loves the gold kit you installed on him. Image Unavailable, Please Login
