David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

I will reserve judgement until I know for certain what engine tipo is in the car when complete. If it is the 247, than indeed the car is largely a 350 CanAm with a incorrect P4 body. If it is 0858 tipo 237, then your "facts" are no longer factual.

The reconfiguration has happened. The question is whether they do a complete job or not.

 

What is your definition of complete?

What will the title of this car state it is:0858 330P4, 0858 350 P4, or 0858 350 Can Am?

 

Apart from the tipo 237 engine in 330 P4 0856 do any others exist?

Also, how many tipo 237 engines were made? Were there more made than the originals in 0846 P3/P4 and P4s 0856, 0858 and 0860?

Were there spare tipo 237 engines made?

 

Think this sums it up.

 

Thanks. Does anyone have a link to Jim's PDF that he refers to?

 

I think that if Talacrest had the opportunity to put a 237-engine in it, they would have made a big deal of it, because it would matter a lot for this particular 'endeavor'.

 

Yes.

 

Thank you. How many?

 

http://www.glickenhaus.com/jim/project.pdf

 

Thank you. Do you know what page contains the relevant information regarding where the tipo 237 heads and blocks from 0858 and 0860 went?

 

My own preference would have been for the car to remain 0858 350 CanAm. It has not. I think it would be acceptable to return it fully to 0858 330 P4. The assumption of most here is that it might end up as 0858 350 P4, which I would view as an incomplete job and as Jim has pointed out, a bit fraudulent. It is the engine that will determine that.

Complete would be a 330 P4 type 237 engine in classis 0858 with the P4 body.

 

There's more to it then that.

Gearbox, wheels etc. But I'm guessing you are aware of that as your posts seem quite informed.

 

correct, hence my comment about the shade of gray. The more correct P4 components, the more complete the reconfiguration. The more 350 Can Am bits, the less complete. Regardless, the body should have been done by Allegretti if it was going to be done.

 

The Tipo 603 R Gearbox in 0858 was used in the car when it was a 330 P4 as well as a 350 Can Am. I have this in writing from Ferrari Classiche. I have stated this a number of times in this thread.

Regarding the 350 Can Am wheels on 0858, how wide exactly are they? Is someone actually going to answer this?

 

correct

 

Ferrari was both smart are frugal. When they needed to fit taller gears and stronger shafts into 603 P4 gearboxes for the VMAX and Torque required for Can Am they revised the P4 gear box as the photo I posted of original 603 P4 and 350 Can Am 603R gearboxes shows. They used the revised boxes in The 350 Can Am, the 612 Can Am, The 712 Can Am and the 512S and 512M.

As I said earlier and the photo of the dual stamped block I posted prove Ferrari reused blocks when they could in different Tipo's and as the 237 Tipo block can be built as either a 3 or 4 liter as per Sparling (my pdf) the 237 block was still useful to Ferrari for may years for F1.

 

I can only speculate on this which I try not to do. Without knowing the de what was done in the USA,Australia and South Africa we can only guess.Wait till 0858 comes out of Talacrest and experts crawl all over it shall we get some idea. There is also the work done a S.F. in converting it into the Can Am machine. As far as I know there isn't much available on this subject. tongascrew

 

Thank you Ney.It's nice to have a reasonably balanced opinion. Hopefully it will be resolved for most when the restoration is complete. For those not in agreement I am sure we will hear from them. tongascrew

 

The issue of the sn at the 2009 RM auction is part of the cause of the sn controversy.I am sure you are familiar with this. I completely agree with you about #0858.Aparently the lawyers at RM had other ideas. Comment? tongascrew

 

So how much P4 do you know came with the car to Talacrest.? So far I have not heard anyone who really knows. If you do tell us what you know and your sources. I have asked this before and have yet to hear any specifics from anyone. tongascrew

 

Advertising this car an original Can Am car when the whole world knows it was originally 0858 P4 and a great deal of the chassis still is sounds pretty fraudulent to me. But let's see what it's called when it leaves he nest. tongascrew

 

The lawyers at the RM auction of 2009 insisted that the car could not be sold as 0858 but as 603C. It's all there in he record. That's where the second sn came from. tongascrew

 

This is not correct. The 512 and 612 gearboxes are not tipo 603R or 603C. They are tipo 613. This links to the original 612 chassis design documents.

Fwiw, in addition to tipo 237, my records show tipo 241 as being linked to P4's.

 

Tipo 241 engines were used in 0844 when it was converted from a P3 to a 412P and also 0850 and 0854 which are model 412P. 2 valve engines with Webers.

 

Thank you. My notes simply listed both numbers, but did not provide details as to the differences or serial numbers.