David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

that's one!
Now the others please

 

Most people on her are fully aware that 0860 is a 350 Canam with a replica P4-body. No point in moaning about the conversion, since that was done a long time ago. Don't really see the double standard here. Any other examples perhaps?

 

Gents

We need to remember that we all have a common interest, some of us feel passionate about originality, some like to tinker and modify, it would be a boring world if every car that left a factory stayed that way forever. Luckily in the case of the P4 there is an original example, and the other two are pretty close having had a bit of a racing life in between.

I can honestly see how some would love the car to have remained a time capsule of its Can Am days, and yes it is a pity, but such is the allure of the P4 that in the case of 0858 its now going back to an earlier life.

Lets leave the silly stuff now and appreciate the car throughout all its evolutions.

The good thing about this thread though is it has unearthed some fantastic info and photos and hopefully once the car is completed an in depth analysis of the work and its components can be made.

 

Does anybody know when 0860 was converted? ...and WHY 0860 was converted?

I think it's important because that was clearly a case where finances did not dictate the conversion (it was not done prior to, coincidental to, or immediately following a sale and is still under same ownership). Presumably, PB thought it was an "improvement" ...or, why would he have done it?

IOW, the other one (0860) was converted to make it a more enjoyable car to own...might that be (part of) the reason for this conversion (0858), too?

 

Personally I think the 350 Can Am body work would be easier to drive as there's more visibility and air flow. These Puppy's get hot especially the coupes. In the rain the wipers aren't very good and the Can Am bodywork with a helmet would be better. I've driven my P 3/4 Spyder in the rain and the wipers are fair. The 350 Can AM body work would be legal on the road with a helmet and eye protection. I don't see what happened then to 0860 or what's happening today to 0858 as making the car easier to own/drive but as an aesthetic choice especially as in both cases the 247 350 Can Am engines remain. 412 Carb engines are easier to drive and if one fitted a 237 P4 engine it might be a little less edgy that a 247 350 Can Am engine but the main way to make these FI engines more drivable is by Flow Testing the Lucas Mechanical F1 and restoring it properly WHICH IS NOT EASY. The person we used is Jim Kinsler. Personally I'd also look at the Lucas "Black Bomb" high pressure pump and make use it's set properly to 247 or 237 spec as required. I'd also be VERY careful to use the right (P4 and 350 Can Am Fuel PSI gauges are different) rebuilt fuel PSI gauge as high psi fuel run to that gauge IN THE DASH.

0860 was fit with a period correctly made replica "P4" body around 1970.

 

Perhaps you know 0844 - converted in 1998 back to P3.

 

Converted back to a 412P, not a P3.

 

That one retained it's original 330 P3/412/330 Can Am engine. IMO it's VERY sad that they didn't keep the original 330 Can Am body and fit a Replica "412P" body as then the car could be used either way. Chassis Tube's that flowed water, fuel and oil and acted as a intercooler were lost along the way in some of the P cars including 0844. I know 0846, 0854 and 0856 are still original regarding that and believe 0848 and 0860 are as well. I don't think 0850 is anymore either. Personally I'd REALLY test and repair the corrosion and welds in 0858's chassis before running oil/fuel/water through it's tubes. As an aside you can race in Vintage Events with fluids running through chassis tubes and cars at The LeMans Classic and The Goodwood FOS and revival have and do.

 

As you say 0844 retains its original 330 P3 engine, does it have both tipo 216 (P3) and tipo 241 (412 P and 330 Can Am) stamped on it? Perhaps somebody could ask Jim?

 

From what I understand what spares remained with 0858 were kept by Piper when he sold the car to Medlin some of which went into 0900.I have no idea what spares went to Walker when Piper loaned or leased the car to him for the South Africa,Mozambique races in the Fall of 1969 The large supply of the P series spares received by Piper came from Maranello in the deal with E.F. which I assume took place around 1970. And yes, when Piper bought 0858 from the Hawkins estate some spares probably did come with the car.What were they and was there a second engine?There is a lot of missing details here. Anyone who would like to contribute will be very welcome tongascrew

 

This was the Symbolic conversion with some parts etc from Piper. 330 engine. Comments? tongascrew

 

I am also glad this doesn't strike me as obvious eather. You got that right.But show me where in this entire thread I have ever used he words "destroy" or "profit from" regarding David Piper. By misquoting me all you do is "destroy" any arguement you might otherwise "profit from". tongascrew

 

I have suggested that you implied Enzo gave his blessing for Piper to do as he wished to P cars. Destroying them would be included in that.

I did ask you for proof to give credence to that. I'm still waiting...

 

Jim has said that 0844 retains the original 330 P3 engine therefore its tipo must have changed from the 216 it originally was as a 330 P3 to the tipo 241 it next became as a 412P in losing its fuel injection system and gaining Weber carbs, and has kept since its further iterations as a 330 Can Am and now 412P again. With respect to Jim's knowledge and experience of this form of Ferrari prototype that he undoubtedly has, please could someone ask him if he knows if the engine in 0844 retains the tipo 216 stamping it must have had originally or if it has been removed since becoming a tipo 241 engine? Also is the induction system the only difference between the two tipos? Or does anyone else have the answers?

 

"Destroying them would be included in that" These are your words not mine. Since you seem to believe that destroying them was an option then it is you and you alone who needs to come up with the poof. I won't be waiting because I would be a complete waste of time. tongascrew

 

Destroying them is an option simply because that is what's being done. His questionable work isn't exclusive to this car either as you are probably aware.

You implied Piper was given free reign by Enzo, certainly not me and yet you have provided nothing but opinion to justify it.

 

Whome ever you,[ie. me] are I see no reason to continue this nor apparently does anyone else. Good by.tongascrew

 

All good points I also recommend the new thread "History of Ferrari body construction..."These comments can be applied to many historic Ferrari models including the P series. tongascrew

 

If you cannot substantiate what you implied regarding Enzo and Piper, I see no reason to continue this exchange either.

Yours will remain exactly what it was, a hypocritical viewpoint.

 

Pierre Bardinon got 0860 sometime during 1970 and if a body came with it it was the Can Am body. The original P4 body was sold from the Ferrari scrap heap to Piper.Bardinon soon started a conversion back to the original P4 specs When the new P4 body was completed was probably not until well after 1970. It would be nice to get some info on this rebuild and how it was done. tongascew

 

Latest pics from the paintshop posted on Talacrest's FB page.
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Re post 1883. You CANNOT run fluid throught chassis tubes. It has been banned for many years.

 

Are you saying the actual fuel gauge acts as the pressure regulator? With the fuel flowing directly to the dash mounted gauge? That type of gauge has been banned for decades in every santioning body(drag, road race, circle track, etc) that I'm aware of. Most use an electronic gauge now that reads a signal from the actual fuel pressure regulator so that no fuel is in or about the cockpit. Even the slightest malfunction of a FP gauge that uses actual fuel can be disasterous-especially one involving a fuel injected engine. Speaking from personal experience, we had a fuel rail fail on one of the race cars and a tiny leak resulted in a 50psi spray of raw fuel in the engine bay. It went straight up, was immediately ignited and we had flames 10' high in an instant. Fire system did its job, but a scary moment or two.

 

Yes.

It is a disaster waiting to happen and especially dangerous if one fits the wrong PSI gauge to the wrong engine.

On another note someone pointed me towards the latest TC photo's. The windshield curve as I said earlier remains totally incorrect. The easiest difference between a Replica and an original is the very subtle double curve a few inches forward from the top of the original windshield.

Piper has had that wrong for years.

Best

Best

 

Maybe its just those images but compared to Stroll's real P4 the body cutaways/vents seem too slender.