Islero thread

The personal letter in question, is supported by Pussich's letter, and Scott's letter. In my mind, the trio of individual & seperate correspondence pointing to the same thing is beyond reproach.

Best,
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That last one would seem to support the idea that he drove a variety of cars for a while, not logging very many miles and then they were sold. Much like dealer demo cars. Indeed, his calling this one his personal car is then undercut somewhat by his talking about it has such low miles because drives such a variety of cars ... I dunno, calling it "his" personal car now seems a bit tenuous. Like you said "subjective". It's a lot more than a lap of the Monte Carlo grand Prix circuit with prince & princess on board through!

 

And even more than "he once leaned on it"

"My Personal Islero" is pretty definitive though, works for me, and, I suspect, many others.

 

Good sales technique right?

 

I did more researches on this particular car than you seem to believe...

As I have interviewed personnaly Ingrid Pussich many times and because she shows me all the official period records and because she explains me HOW is was working at the factory... what you never did & got directly with/from her as she confirmed strongly....

for your knowledge : all these signatures ARE NOT Ferruccio's personnal signature !!!

I've brought & show her many examples like you just did here... she refuted all these signatures and she explained that Ferruccio Lamborghini never took time to sign these daily letters... just imagine how many hundreds letters everyday for all his factories... impossible... but confirmed by THE only one who could explain & reveal this particular aspect on which you just base your explanation.

On specific official documents, she show me the right/correct signature, to be released in the book.

So, I believe the aforementioned book will be more than interesting on several reveals !!!

But I'm still open & wait for someone who can prove me #6201 is Ferruccio's car, at this point it is not the case.

 

All this proves is that the rather cursive "wine-bottle" signature of Ferruccio's cannot be expected to on a letter to a car customer. My postings of numerous documents also prove that the signature on the letter to Scott is in keeping with the signature by or for Ferruccio for the period.

 

Ive been asked who is Ed Scott?

Chances are if you have ever been skiing, you have used equipment he invented:

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Ed Scott's signed testimonial letter stating that he bought "Lamborghini's personal Islero"
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Period 1978 Ad placed in Don Tognotti's Lamborghini Owner's Club magazine by Ed Scott.

"F.Lamborghini's personal car bought by me at factory in 1970".

Note details in the Ad.
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6201 as she exists nowadays. All things considered, its a pretty cool Lamborghini.
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Sorry Joe, this doesn't prove anything, you have "fight" with strong argumentations for years when a car had poor and/or insignificant testimonies... without factory statement... and you were sometimes right...

SHOW us a factory statement and I will believe you !

There is no allegation from me as you stated, I explain my analysis of facts, it is just an opinion, that you don't share and I can admit you don't share it.

About Ferrucio's signature, it is not the same as the others, and you don't answer to the fact Ferruccio was not writing English and was not typing his letter and not even about the missing initial of the secretary who should have typed it... why do you avoid to answer to that particular fact ?

Imitating his signature was easy as you demonstrate with all these English correspondance... when you will have one of his signature that is 500% identified by Ingrid Pussich or his wife Teresa, like I did when I spend a full day with her, then you will be in position to argue !

 

The Scott testimonial letter which is clearly authentic and properly corroborated by the later period Advertisement in the LOC publication both carry tremendous weight and in fact do serve to corroborate Ferruccio's ownership (when combined with his letter) beyond reproach in the heart & minds of those interested in the car. And anyone unbiased! The fact that Scott was an upstanding member of the community in the USA & Internationally, and the fact that his own claims are supported by Ferruccio's own letter, absolutely seal the deal as far as I'm concerned. As we all know, many pieces if history exist in document form, but proof is all about corroboration.

I doubt you would believe a factory statement even if one was provided, that much is clear by the thrust and motivation of your posts. Having said that, you are entitled to your opinion, and the rest have theirs. Bear in mind that you have offered not a single shred of documentary evidence or signed affidavits to support your maligned claims. Yes I know you have talked to a lot of people with understandably faded memories & differing opinions, but it all boils down to hearsay & third-hand information as far as I am concerned. Meanwhile your assertions do not come across as a dispassionate & fair debate, but rather as a deliberate attempt to cast doubt, as your over-the-top "500%" remark clearly suggests.

You are right, your "analysis of facts, it is just an opinion" as you succinctly put it. After all, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

That Ferruccio didn't speak English is irrelevant as evidenced by the documents I have produced, and can only be suggested here to counter the car's ownership as a grasping-at-straws tactic. That there is not a typist's initial is very simple: it was a personal communication not to be placed on the books, hence the personal letterhead, in reference to his personal car, so a typist's initial & recording was unneccesary.

That the signature is not authentic would be a question for me if there was nothing else from Scott to support it. In light of whats available, I don't second-guess it even for a moment.

Ive answered everything you've put forth. Any further questions? I'd be only too pleased to wax lyrical about this car and extol its virtues as you have so kindly given me the platform to do prior to its auction.

This car's history and current condition are better documented than many classic Lamborghinis are. Naturally there are a few small details we would love to know more about, but, in the grand scheme of things they are not every important given its nicely restored condition. At least its provenance is well-established and has been so from new, and Ferruccio's ownership is not the typical stretching we sometimes see in the Lamborghini world. Case in point: calling a Lamborghini a Le Mans racer, when in fact it never raced there at all! But more on that anon.

Best,

 

As it was pointed several times in others threads, you show your theeth like a shark (it is boring) when you have nothing else to say in addition to the current documentation you are defending.

To my opinion : an owner testimony (I never doubt it was authentic) + an advertisment are not proving it is Ferruccio's car.

Is the letter "signed" Ferruccio an original letter with "ink over/on paper" ? or is it just a copy of a copy ?

Again, show me an original invoice stating that or an original factory statement like many Vintage Lambo are so well documented and I will revised immediately my opinion.

May be some people will be pleased with these "very light" documents, but I'm not and I'm not the only one.

You stated : "deliberate attempt to cast doubt"...
Sharing the informations I had is legitimate, and the lyric of your motherlanguage doesn't make a difference in what I and other people think. If you want next time we can write in French, we will see if you are still confortable.

Without any sarcasm, with your esteemed skill about original records (as you demonstrated us clearly so many times in this Forum & in your book) : give us an explanation why Jarama #10418 can prove it was Ferruccio's car while #6201 cannot ?

Let's come back to #6201, its provenance is NOT well-established like you are claiming because there are NO factory documentation as many classic Lamborghini are so well documented.

About the document with imitation of Ferruccio's signature, it's NOT Ferruccio's signature because Ingrid Pussich and Teresa Lamborghini confirmed it to me when I show them that document a year a ago... so you wrote : "That the signature is not authentic would be a question for me if there was nothing else from Scott to support it. In light of whats available, I don't second-guess it even for a moment."

How can you doubt of these 2 personnalities/women you never met ???
How can you balance Scott's testimony as more valuable than them ???

Do I have to describe who they are to the Audience ?

Apparently yes :
Ingrid Pussich : right hand of Ubaldo Sgarzi (sales manager) and Ferruccio's direct secretary, on top of the others secretaries (like Moera for instance).
Teresa Lamborghini : Ferruccio's 3rd wife and mother of Patrizia Lamborghini

Aren't they stronger than your English lyric to entertain the Audience with : "broken clock is right twice a day" ??? Wake up Joe "Peter Pan" is for kids...

Are you in a position Joe to claim and to prove these persons are not able to recognise Ferruccio's signature ?

Are you in a position Joe to prove that the blue Islero used by Ferruccio in 1971 was not is real personnal Islero instead of that one ? I'm not in that position, excepted the testimony about the year and the color, I'm honnest. But why Ferruccio would continue to use an Islero in 1971 when the production was stopped at the end of January 1970 ? if not his personnal Islero... when he can also drive at the same time a Jarama, an Espada and a Miura...

Ask yourself the right questions.

Are you re-writing Lamborghini factory history the "Joe's way" : "That there is not a typist's initial is very simple: it was a personal communication not to be placed on the books, hence the personal letterhead, in reference to his personal car, so a typist's initial & recording was unneccesary."... oh yes Joe that's a good joke !

Ingrid Pussich described me HOW it was working inside the factory and any Ferruccio's correspondance typed by a secretary was done with : a reference, initial and a "carbon copy", while explaining it to me, she demonstrated me with period documents how it was always done !

Can I add you seem to not like people who are coming with different approaches/analysis than yours ? people who took the time to interview period people in Italy, what you didn't.

It is too easy to critic these persons with "fade memories", because it just hidden the fact you never made that intellectual approach...

At your place, I will explain to the Audience why you spend so much time to defend that/your argumentation about #6201...

Again, it was legitimate to share the infos I had in hands, anyone will make his own opinion knowing all aspects of this car...

About your miserable behavior... why write this sentence, trying to bless/hurt someone ??? "Case in point: calling a Lamborghini a Le Mans racer, when in fact it never raced there at all! But more on that anon.".... it has nothing to do with #6201 ???

Some readers will not understand and the few who knows I'm the owner of Paul Rilly's ex Islero (3rd Islero prototipo before production started) which attempted qualifications of Le Mans 1975, whith its ALL clarified history, well documented & plenty pictures, reported in Serge Bellu's book as "Le Mans racer" because it did the practises and the qualifications at La Sarthe track...

So why mentionning Le Mans racer... is it a personnal problem for you ?
You have not discovered it.
Yes that's a fact !
It is the ONLY ONE eligible Vintage Lamborghini for 24h Le Mans Revival.
Yes, that's also a fact !
You will not be able to offer it to your customers and make a commission over it.
That's another fact !


The Audience will conclude itself.

 

Indeed, I think the conclusion is a spirited debate of opinions, with one side supported with documentation, the other side with assertions.

I appreciate your thoughts on 6201.

 

I knew you can be a wise man... sometimes without indirect & subtil/tactical/sophisticated aggressivity !

 

Well, I'm flattered after all that!

Meanwhile you can see that the engine is in standard configuration, certainly externally, and the red wrinkle on the cam-covers can easily be made black if desired. I don't think there is any way to determine what color they were originally even though the car's long-term mechanic supports its current guise. Either way, this is a nice example.

I should mention that is has a more complete set of original Islero books (owners manual, warranty book, sales brochures, etc) than I have ever seen with an Islero.
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You bet to know me better Joe, I can argue, discuss and so on... we are on a Forum, but I can also recognised human qualities, human behavior that lead to profile someone... I never open the door to free agressivity, but if someone does it to me for free, then I 'm able to react...

Of course, it is a very nice example offered at that auction, I've always recognised this car is of excellent restoration.

Yes, it is for sure complete like many others survivors for which their current owners are taking very good care as 3 years ago Marcello's event European Islero Meeting demonstrated with 12x Islero present at the event.

 

'Can I add you seem to not like people who are coming with different approaches/analysis than yours ? people who took the time to interview period people in Italy, what you didn't.'

But why you both don't like me, even if I did hundreds of hours of 'interviews with period people in Italy' ?

 

The question was asked about the ID plate and 1 stamping that looks like a 4, but the frame reveals a clear stamping of 6201 (which has now been photo-documented by Gooding) as corroboration of same.

Also, Gooding fairly describes it as "First Used by Ferruccio Lamborghini, Recently Restored by Marque Expert Gary Bobileff". Considering the restoration, the estimate of $225,000 - $275,000 is fair and doesn't milk the Ferruccio link at all IMO.
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If it helps any, the last Islero Gooding had was in the low $200ks, and it was not a total restoration AFAIK, to underscore the point above.
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Oh gawd, it's all "downhill" from here ...

 

I never realized who Ed Scott was till recently:

Alf Engen Ski Museum Foundation: Ski History Museum-Utah Olympic Park, Park City

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Rolando,
Please don't play the victim overhere... I never said I don't like you, as well as, I never self clamed I'm better than another one...

I've personnaly invite you many time to share your knowledge and I have personnaly tried to meet you in Italy in one of my previous trip... you never answered me !!!

But all 3, we may have different opinions depending the topic !

For me, you are more than welcome but don't critic again with "attack" like you did before, there are enough "violence" outside this board to not live this here.

 

Joe,
you know that an estimation is not freezing the roof price...

You said in another conversation that Ingrid Pussich's letter was also a proof this is Ferruccio's car. Having read it (it shows that she has not typed, but Morea did), it is not showing or demonstrating it was Ferruccio's car, she just mentionned the shipping, owner book and keys...

Again, my opinion is not shaken by these elements, by cons, yes, I am asking myself a lot of questions about the accuracy of these elements that can be absolutely disputed by the facts collected from reliable personnalities, who gave me their assertions.

I wish of course it will find a new house with someone who will take good care of it and who will enjoy it !!!

 

Yeah but that one involved lots of liquor and a comedian ...