The offer of the day.....

I don't see the Citroen stuff but the description does mention it ?????

But I agree it's probably got a lot of needs.

Aren't the bumpers much easier to rectify on a Merak that say the Bora which requires substantial rear sub frame alterations? New exhaust would be put on anyway right?

It looks fairly complete. Waaaaaay cheaper to buy a nice one.

 

I agree with your other statements, but I don't agree with this one. Some things are not just about money, the Ghibli is just a lot more beautiful than the equivalent (and a lot more) Ferraris. No matter what the price difference is, the Ghibli is one of the most beautiful cars ever, no exaggeration there!

I think some cars are being appreciated with a little delay, just because they didn't appear in the radar of the big collectors. Like the Dino...

 

I won't disagree about the Ghibli's looks either but it just hasn't caught on like the equvalent Ferraris. That's just fact. But it is doing better now!

 

Maserati Ghibli Coupe 2.8 Coupe | eBay

I had the Biturbo spyder fully sorted AND I have seen a few of these cars on the road. Real muscle car presence. So sorry to spark the debate. I still puzzle and the 228 and other odd ugly cars that are out of synch but somehow we still had the QPIII which is cool and some other great cars.

 

maserati 3500 gt 1960 restoration | eBay

Where to start.......

 

My 84 easily out accelerates and handles my Bora until about 125mph then the Bora just keeps going but gets light in the front end. Mine is not a stock 84 but still ... as a "car" to drive somewhere in comfort with some modern conveniences it's just a much better car. Not in build quality but mine's been reliable after it was sorted. I had to sort the Bora as well.

The Bora is automotive art the 84 is not. Just a fun little coupe with lots of comfort.

I like the later Ghibli II and find that interior just so nice and simple yet elegant. Ergonomically it works very well for me.

 

By finding an engine, transmission, transaxle, wheels, hubs, the list goes on.

Do not pass Go, do not collect $200 on this one...

 

Those tires could be worth a lot of money!

Ivan
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Am sure this debate has been here many times before and i dont want to spark it off again but would just like to add that i have had a lot of fun with my Biturbo S in the 7 years i have had it so far.
Handles like a gocart, acceleration is amazing and it is super comfortable on long trips (once did a 7500km to portugal and back without any problems)

Yes, it is not as exclusive as the rest and many are in very bad condition + most are not happy with what happened during the era when deTomaso was at the helm but i still appreciate the car. Like it more than the modern Maseratis.

The vintage V8 models i can compare it to drive like big ships. Very nice of course but much less sporty.

Off topic again, sorry.

 

Ad nauseam, usually I'm involved somehow too.

I share your observations.
I drove a lovely Indy last summer and enjoyed it's 4.7 & 5 speed though the coastal pass from I5 to Gilroy a lot.

I like them all. Others are bigoted.

Since Biturbos get bashed regularly in this thread your post is actually on topic!

 

Yes, not all was bad in the eighties....I also like the QPIII, and any 1989 variant is a good car, with the understressed larger 2.8 liter motor, the fuel injection eliminating the pressurized fire-bomb carburetor, the bigger brakes, 5 lug wheels, better seats, the better differential, and the other numerous quality and performance improvements. I have recently bought three 1989 Maseratis because they are great cars and so undervalued, and the prices can't go anywhere but up! It is just like Cadillac with their Allante and Pontiac with the Fiero....they started out bad cars, and after years of improvements, finally, when they got the car right, they killed it off! (at least in the USA)

 

I'm sorry to say but I don't agree with you. I do own a Ghibli GT ('99 model) and it would be nice to see their values go up.

but

I don't believe their values will go up, because:

1) they are badly made
2) use low quality components
3) look like normal cars, uninteresting, ugly
4) never really raced or won anything interesting
5) they are unreliable
6) they are junk
7) the market knows all of the above and steers away, values go down


On average, many 80's cars will always remain junk, due to various fashions that came out during that era, for example: cheap plastic consoles and buttons, ugly square shapes, uninteresting designs. Not all of them are like that, but many are.

 

You should put that on a continuous loop so that you don't forget it.

They are uninteresting and ugly when compared with a 3 series BMW of that era? I think you're wrong.

But I would agree they're not as well built as any BMW of that era. But not junk.
You just hate them, as does Walter. Obvious hatred always undercuts one's arguments.
Must have been that pack of wild Biturbos and your ...

 

easy on my Allante. I have to admit that the interior console is a real patch job. ash tray and everything else is just loose as a goose. car gose like a bat out of hell. but there is way too much power for the available traction. and going around a corner is a very careful challenge

 

That would probably be you, who needs to do that

Nope, I'm right and you know why? Because both cars look the same from a few meters away, which makes the Biturbo the looser.

Indeed it was a pack of wild Biturbos... I passed them by, after they had broken down ho ho

 

The fullness of time will prove that your opinion is incorrect.

 

I don't have a problem to be proven wrong, I would actually benefit from such a miracle, since I own a car like the ones we discuss.

This thread will probably be here "forever", so please make sure to remind me in 20+ years to come back and read it. It will be interesting no matter if I'm right or wrong...

 

Fuel injected Biturbos and post 94 Ghiblis have already started increase in value here in europe. US Biturbo Spyders are migrating back to europe. High end classic car magazines are running buyers guides for them (C & CS). Last winter I bought an ´89 Zagato Spyder from the west coast, and imported it to europe. 24k mile car with factory 16" wheels, five speed, 2,8 litre engine and my favourite color combination (black with tan interior). Gave it a tune up and de-catted it and I have been smiling ever since. A bargain of the decade!

 

Expected much more of a sh**storm, so am positively surprised to see some supporters.

Guess look is totally based on opinion so difficult to argue about.

Wondering which important racing results qualify any model from the 60s or 70s to be more relevant?

Unreliable, probably a lot of owners dont maintain them well.
Mine has never caused any problems and it is even one of the "junk" carburator versions which i like even better because more raw, better sound etc...

Even some of our beloved GTs are not so well made but back then nobody expected them to get 50 years old, no?

Agree, most Biturbos are now junk because they were not well taken care of but the ones who are, are worth being loved....maybe even little more than a BMW

 

well, I think this forum has a good, mature and polite audience, I don't think that it would be in our best interest to lower the quality of this nice forum. But a little heated debate is also a good thing.

Historically, the Bora was actually very nicely made (for that era), Maserati went "above the call of duty" to make sure the Bora was actually a great car. Unfortunately, our dear de Tomaso had other ideas when he took over Maserati, he was interested in cheap affordable cars for the American market (he wanted to keep his own company of cars ahead of Maserati and not have Maserati as a competitor to his own cars).

Thus, he lowered the built quality, the quality of the assembly process. Back then, they had to build a garage right outside to fix the broken cars that came out of the assembly line. Many cars went to the client without any testing or without fixing the problems (I recall people asking De Tomaso about XYZ car going to ABC client and he denied the engineers to fix the car and actually send it broken).

The 80's damaged Maserati's reputation so badly, that sales dropped even lower than before. Eventually the Ghibli (series I, ABS, etc) came out but it was too late, Maserati went bankrupt (yet again) and was taken over by Ferrari.

Ferrari was a good thing, they re-did the factory assembly lines and imposed important changes to the Ghibli GT, to make it more reliable (rear diff, etc). Unfortunately it was too late yet again and production was shut down.

fast forward to 2001 and the 3200 GT/GTA came out, then its all going upwards ever since...

 

That sounds about right. I like the carb version better as well. Mine runs right but originally it was badly hampered by a ill conceived emissions system. As were all the late GT cars like my Bora. I also have a Ghibli Open Cup which has a lot more HP than the 84 but I enjoy the throttle response and sound better in the 84. Interesting to see someone else with similar views on that point.

You have to ignore the old curmudgeons like Walter and Maserati Blue. They enjoy hating and that leads nowhere good. So it's best just to slap them around once in awhile otherwise pay no mind.

I try to enjoy all the cars and not piss on someone else's choice but some people aren't that magnanimous. Look at the tone of their posts and you can tell.

So welcome and feel free to discuss what ever you like. Don't expect a huge cheering section though. Biturbozentrum is better for technical discussions about Biturbos.

 

Yes, indeed. Most is known fact.

How come de Tomaso built the Kyalami as a direct competitor to the Longchamp then if he wanted his own cars to sell better?

Was it only to come up with a new model in no time? The Khamsin was also built in his era even though developed much earlier, right?

Just curious to fill in my gaps.

 

As mentioned above, didnt want to spark a heated discussion even though i do embrace this from time to time. Can totally understand why people dislike Biturbos as they might have done similar to what is happening to Maserati now on a different level. Water down the image.
Believe it was different back then though as the company did very bad and it was a try to safe it. Maybe not the best obviously in retrospect.

Still, just wanted to raise a flat for those cars. Thats all

 

About half right and half hog wash but nothing new.
Your lack of knowledge about the take over by De Tomaso is breathless. Go do some research as how his hands were tied. BTW, the 3200 started under De Tomaso and was long in gestation also under Fiat who took over Maserati BEFORE Ferrari did and oversaw the Ghibli II, QPIV and Ghibli Open Cup development. Ferrari did indeed do some work for them on those cars. Later when they took over Maserati the Evoluzione models were the Ferrari improved versions.

I'm not going to defend how De Tomaso did business. He was horrible. Everyone knows that. There was no way he could have continued to build low volume expensive and by then archaic GT cars. Besides having no money for them the Italian government insisted on a lower priced higher volume model so that more factory workers would be employed.
He did end up producing the Merak SS sans LHM. I suppose you guys hate him for that as well?