Old Ferrari race cars cheaper than newer Challenge cars?

Hi all,

I'm thinking of buying a Ferrari race car for track days. I do about 10 track days per year. Currently I own a 360 with a few mods (suspension, challenge rims with semi-slicks, racing seats &belts, challenge brake pads, etc.) but still I suffer from quite a lot of maintenance due to overheating, parts like bearings not able to cope with high loads etc. since after all: it's still a street car. More and more people are telling me 'you should really consider a proper race car.

So I've been looking a 360 & 430 challenge cars. Alternatives are a CS (but high price, and in a essence still a road car), or buying more mods for the 360 (which keeps it road legal though in the end I think it's cheaper to just buy a 360 challenge).

Then recently I saw a Trackday with plenty of older types like 308's, completely stripped and converted to proper race cars (roll bars, race clutch, lexan windows, etc. ) and it made me wonder: would buying a 308 (or similar) car, converting it entirely to a proper race car (similar to what most racers do with old BMW's) be cheaper than the new challenge cars? After all, the buying price is lower, and I think buying plus converting to race car still doesn't add up to the price of buying a descent Challenge car.

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Furthermore I have a feeling (but tell me if I'm wrong!!) that the maintenance will be lower. I often see electrical problems with 360C's and the older cars are more mechanical. And a lot of mechanical parts would be replaced by proper racing stuff. I know driving a 308 on the track is not exactly the same as a 360..., but I'm more interested in the experience than lap times.

So my question is: do you think an older Ferrari, converted to a race car, would be cheaper to buy & maintain than a newer Challenge car?

 

Maybe. Some things to consider. A tin top converted to a racecar is never a "proper" racecar. It can be made race worthy pretty easy. Very few know how to develop a Ferrari for racing or have the budget to do it. Let's say you bend an A-arm on a 458C you buy a new one off the shelf. let's say you have a lowly 308racer but you are on the extreme side. You contract someone to build new A-arms and change suspension geometry. Which project is cheaper? Everything you drive is new. Any post 2010 porsche you might own, a 5 series M5 BMW, a Z06 Corvette, or even a later model Ferrari drive so much sportier and much more capably than any 70's tech 308 you will probably spend lots of money getting the 308 to feel more capable just to get to a modern streetcar Z06 level. How about double adjustable shocks and all the springs and shock revalves and on track testing to dial that in? Trackday minimum $150, motons $5000, springs $250/set, revalvings $1000/episode while any modern Ferrari will already be at Z06 level or better. Dancing a car at the limit is fun even when the limits are low. Boards everywhere will tell you how great it is to race a spec mazda miata. Hitting a wall at a car's 100mph top speed is much better than 150mph. Even in HPDE if you do this stuff long enough untoward stuff is going to happen. You can have every bit of safety gear set-up like a NASCAR and the bottom line the slower you hit stuff the better off you are. 99% of tintop's are not running the safest safety system and or don't know what safest is and or will not or can not spend the money for it either. Having all the thrill at lower speeds is a good thing. Ferraris are cool racecars to have and run but are not competitive in any club race classes I know of in the USA. 10 trackdays a year seems to be too few to justify owning a dedicated racecar. The reason to go dedicated is because you want the safest thing at speed which is a caged car with proper seats, harness, sidenets etc. which can't be done in a streetcar. Dual use cars are bad trackcars and bad streetcars.
Another reason to not do this is because once you have a dedicated racecar it needs a trailer and a tow vehicle. That's 3 big pieces of steel you need to figure out where to store.

 

Per your question it's certainly an interesting debate. I could see it going either way. The electrical gremlins are what you most hear a out going newer but at this point, at least on the 360, they are well known and can be diagnosed easily.

I have to say though the 308 you posted looks awesome!!!

 

Thanks for the feedback fatbillybob. Appreciate it.

I shouldn't have used the term 'proper race car' because indeed there's no intention to race and if it's not a fully equipped race car I can accept it for the just 10 track days I do per year.

For me one of the main reasons is safety as you mentioned. But another issue is 'the experience'. I've driven in several race cars (BMW & Ferrari) and it's just a different experience when you sit in one of those things than in a road car. A third reason is not having to pay a repair every time I have a track day, which is currently the case...

But having to transport it by trailer is a pain for me: I don't have a place to store it. This was another reason for thinking to convert an older car (and what I did with my 360) since while it may not be a 'proper race car', I could keep it road legal.

 

I currently seem to have a problem with an occasional peak power which the dealer finds veeeeery difficult to solve.

The picture had the same effect on me. It's why I started to think about this whole subject!

 

Easy answer....buy a 348 Challenge track car. Appreciating asset, fast, fun, tactile, bulletproof. Change the belt once a year, put tires on it, go fast.
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Interesting topic. I have certain rules of thumb when tracking/racing which may be applicable to you:

1. Do not compromise on safety. Even when just tracking (as opposed to racing), have all the safety equipment including a roll cage. For me, this pretty much negates most street car setups even if mechanically track/race worthy

2. It's most likely less expensive in the longer term to buy a converted and developed race car instead of building one, especially when starting from a street car

3. Do not track a vehicle that you are not willing to damage partially or perhaps even totally.

Fatbillybob's advise on comments on tracking/racing a less expensive yet likely just as fun car is very valid. You may or may not need to come to terms with this notion of tracking strictly a Ferrari.

If it's Ferrari or go home; then as long as you understand the expenses to run and fix even an aluminum chassis 360/430 Challenge car, more power to you. If I were in such a position, I would consider the Ferrari total cost of ownership: track conversion costs, running costs (tires, fuel, service, repairs, etc.) and eventual resale. Based on these factors, I would be closely considering a Ferrari race car with period race provenance. Track damage may cost a lot of money to repair, but the inherent history (and therefore value) of the car is still intact.

In conclusion:

- Street car conversion versus Challenge car, Challenge car likely wins.
- Converted street car versus Challenge car, depends on entry price point and level of development that you can trust. I better get a really good deal i.e. <40% of build costs to consider a street car conversion.
- Period-race historic/vintage race car versus Challenge car, depends on your upfront budget and your perceived appreciation potential. Based on price history especially the last decade, historic cars can be hard to beat.

 

Mclaudio makes some very valid points. I agree with him but have a couple of comments.

First a cage is not a cage therefore it is safe. I have seen very terrible cages from a safety point of view and the Ferrari challenge cages are pretty awful. They may be legal but they are far from state of the art. One of the most important advantages to building the car yourself is that you can properly build the cage. 90% of cars are built by some shop who welds in a cage to some random spec like SCCA or NASA for a generic class for perceived use. The safely built cars start at the most vital piece of safety equipment which is your seat. Your seat choice will dictate the compromises that will be built into your cage.

Second the costs to convert a streetcar to a trackcar may not be as expensive as you think. My 348 racecar which got wrecked was cheaper than my Z06 corvette racecar which is a difficult sell! If I sold my Z06 racecar today I'm certain that it would have cost me more to run and own than my 348. The reason is that you can sell all the parts off the ferrari that does not make it faster for stupid money. Ferrari charges so much for parts that if you sell the used stuff for 50% off retail and you can finance your racecar buildwith the proceeds. Mclaudio mentions the possiblity of a complete loss of the car on track. I think that way too. So when I build a trackcar it is a zero. I never think of what I can sell it for later. It is a used up hunk of steel. If it has any value when I am done great! I don't expect any.

Third, when you convert a streetcar you can sometimes keep it just barely street legal to pass whatever inspection in your area, be it smog or road safety. You can then forget the trailer or the pick-up truck to tow it. That lowers your cost of ownership dramatically. A barely street legal Ferrari could be cheaper than a miata, trailer, and pick-up truck combined. Also, in the USA at least any challenge car is not legal for road use. The exception in the USA are 1995 and earlier challenge cars that have a title and are outfitted with correct road gear.

 

The 348 & 355 challenge kits are what inspired me to convert the 360 (which I did last year) I basically installed the same kit, without roll cage (still to be done) and racing clutch (but intended to upgrade to CS ECU).

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_F355#F355_Challenge

 

Don't sweat it the challenge cars are great if you are enjoying
A track day . I wouldn't want to compete with it but for track events are great
A little under powered as the the 348 , 355 , . But the 360s and on word are better

 

Look deeper into this issue (photo)....and see that the guys that are going truly fast reliably are driving Corvettes

 

Hi Robin, you know i did exactly that, starting with a rather tired 308. If you are indeed able to do a lot of the work yourself it Will be cheAper. If you outsource the job you be better of buying a 360/430. Challenge.

If you want some inside info on prepping a 308 sent me a PM

 

Back when I was doing track days I bought a Lotus racecar. Elise 190 sport not road legal so I bought an enclosed trailer. This was a proper racecar with factory safety equipment. It was fantastic, very quick and very cheap to run. Sold it since I wasn't using it.
Consider an Exige S 260 from 2008-10. This is a road legal homologation special, super fast and cheap to run. Check Lotustalk.com.

 

Thanks. I know the Exige S is great (and seriously beautiful) but I'm afraid that unfortunately I have this Ferrari disease so I really want to stick with Ferrari....

 

Haha not a bad disease to have.

 

I simply don't understand budget Ferrari track day car. Sort of an oxymoron. If you just have to have a Ferrari then pick what you want and pay. And have a thick skin, as you are going to be passed by many other cars that are vastly less expensive. My Turbo Miata track car will run pretty close to 355 Challenge pace and that is with R888 on the Miata and slicks on the 355C. Consumables are probably a 10:1 delta between the cars and I get a chuckle if I go off in the Miata as opposed to cringing over how much undertray damage there may be to the 355C.

I've never seen a 3x8 go fast on track, so I'd personally not go for that little project. Stick with 348 or later and spend what it takes.

And that 308 pic looks bad, actually. Smoke is billowing out of the front left. Tire clearance? brakes? In any event that car is consuming something in a hurry.

 

Dear Keith,

Thanks for the reply; you may have misunderstood my intentions. I never asked for a budget Ferrari. I personally don't believe in it. Especially if you track it, costs are simply high and one will have to accept it.

My point was that now I'm driving a Ferrari 360 converted to track car, and I was wondering if there is a cheaper way to track Ferraris, that's all (in particular due to occasional electrical and expensive F1 problems).

The 308 will certainly be slower than the 360, but like I said it's more about the sensation than about lap times.

The picture of the 308 is bad indeed. I didn't see the smoke until after I posted it. I have many pics of that day (made by Fchatter Bigodino) but somehow I took the one pic with the smoke , simply because I liked the color combination of that car.

 

To clarify myself with the picture I also like the color combo and seeing it on a track. To often we do not see Ferraris on tracks and I love when we do.



Anyway, Robin what are you thinking at this point?

 

I've built a few converted street cars and I am telling you that buying a dedicated, previously-developed race car is probably going to be better.

And not caring about lap times seems like famous last words to me. Almost all of my advanced students care about lap times, sooner or later.

And if it is the experience that matters, I'd not get a 360 or later, as shifting gears to me is a huge part of the experience, especailly if you don't care about lap times.

And funny that you'd like the color scheme of the FORD that won Le Mans in 1969. I don't think I know of any Ferraris with the Gulf livery, but maybe there were some?
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My vote would be a 355 Challenge to start with. If you are only doing 10 events a year, then the 355 is great place to start. It's an easy car to own. It's reliable and simple to work on with the OBD1 engine management system. It's easy to setup. It's cheap to buy. It's hard to find a well sorted one. That's the "challenge".

The 430's are very expensive to run and you need a SD3 machine to clear error codes. The 360's are great cars but they are at the 13 year cycle. The computers systems are so expensive to replace along with everything else. You have to consider 360's have had a lot of track time at this point.

Again, you have to find a good 360/430 and plan on spending a wad of cash to keep them running.
Your skill level and driving style factor into the amount of repairs you will have on the vehicle. Are you aggressive and push the car to the limit or are you a Sunday driver at the track? This determines your running cost too.

No matter what your choice is, driving a Ferrari at the track is always a fun day.

 

You are uneducated when it comes to racing 3x8.
Currently in the 308/328 section there a thread of some uk guys who really races their 308 against even f40 and f50...... And stayed ahead all the rest of the field. Fyi naturally aspirated 3 litre two valve engines, with carbs(!) doing well over 400 bhp.

 

I have not seen the 308's much on track in the USA. I have seen videos in Europe of them running hard.
A well driven Miata is a powerful and cheap track weapon with an experienced driver. I too have seen them pass new Ferrari's and Porsche's with a good driver at the wheel.

The Ferrari is a toy. If you can afford it, buy it and have fun with it.

Here is a video that shows the speed diff between a standard Miata and a 355 CH. Go to the 8:38 mark.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1XgAbKDAqM]Getting killed by Red Group drivers during Happy Hour - YouTube[/ame]

 

i would think it would cost a bundle of money to make a 308 fast.

 

I have to take you word for it; I've never seen it in the US. Are you talking RACING or DE? Frankly, I've never seen an F40 or F50 racing, either. Don't get me wrong, I love Ferraris on track, but if budget is even a consideration I also don't think a Ferrari is a good choice if you care about pace very much. Awfully expensive to run a given lap time in a Ferrari compared to other options.

I just don't think there is much support for a 3x8 race car in the US, but I could be wrong. Nothing wrong with carbs for power, either, but to make 300 bhp from 3 liters is going to take some real rpm, I would think (like over 8000). My 2.6 liter RPE v8 needs over 10000 rpm to make a similar number.

I think a 355C is the ticket for the OP. Great sound, well engineered, and probably maintainable without completely breaking the bank.

 

best bang for the buck, all out tracking excitement, replacement parts readily available at non exotic prices, 800+ HP, top of the speed charts where ever you go, lots of safety gear, low entry and on going tracking cost...ex NASCAR cup car built for road courses... it may not have the F car label and appeal, but it makes up for it and offers more fun... relatively speaking the cars are disposable if one has a bad day at the track compared with the same issue in a Ferrari... these cars are fantastic bundle of fun... the cars are cheap now because of lack of demand for out of date road going cup cars... fast fun affordable,