Kimi to Ferrari? Part Deux

How do you know that? Did MS tell you over dinner one night, or did Todt call you and tell you?

 

Peter,

First suggestion is in "Autocourse 2006 - 2007" page 237; a fair number of articles in magazines have said this since.
Sorry, but no personal line with Jean Todt, and no dinners with MS, even if I have a fairly good command of german...

Rgds

 

I don't believe it until I hear it from the horse's mouth.

A guy who comes back from a 3 year break and risks his reputation isn't going to be scared of teaming up with Kimi. It just doesn't make sense.

If MS has the self belief that at the age of 40 and after a break he can come back and be competitive, then he's not going to be turned off by Kimi joining "his" team a few years earlier.

Know what I mean? These F1 guys have supreme confidence. I doubt if any of the top guys think someone else will beat them in the same car.....until it actually happens.

 

it does back them as MS (first iteration) never liked a competitive team mate.

When he came back he was a different person.
Pete

 

I understand what you mean, Peter; agreed, those guys are not normal animals.
To sum-up the stories, MS was not "scared" by Kimi's arrival in the summer of 2006, rather annoyed because he felt that he no longer had all the cards in hands, just like he had in the previous years, and just like he always has wanted. Luca wanted to prepare the future and he thought that MS wasn't the best option for this anymore. Jean Todt thought otherwise.
If you look at chronology, it would be the premices of the dislocation of the Todt / Brawn / MS tiumvirate, and the beginning of the "re-italianisation" phase (which has not be a complete success, shall we say).
Todt himself has been said as not at ease with this, either; he left Ferrari completly a year later, without even an honorary role which was rather strange, if you take into account the job he has done since the summer of 1993.

I guess there is a part of truth at least in this (how much, difficult to know, seven years later...) because obviously MS felt he has some "unfinished business" after he left his seat at Ferrari. He was willing to take Massa's seat after the "spring accident" in Hungary in 2009, but a neck injury made this not possible.
During the time he spent with the team as "special advisor" for the Scuderia in 2007 and 2008, the italian press, never short of nicknames, called him "il Gufo", which translates as "the Owl", because he was perched there rather useless and looking rather distraught.

What I believe is that he was, in a way, "pushed outside" Ferrari at the end of 2006; he was not willing to continue under the new rules (of which having Kimi as a teammate on equal terms was a part), so he left rather against his will.

And, to go back to Kimi, I think that, in the same way, he felt the team was not supporting him anymore after Santander's arrival, and that was the main source of what most people call "lack of motivation", which was, perhaps, true in a way, but not the only cause I think, as he has been proving since his return. I am the first to agree that the sharp end of the speed he had in 2005 is not here anymore, but his return has been convincing, at least up to now.

Rgds

 

Oh, and by the way, to go back to the thread's title: no rumours of Kimi's back to Ferrari in the last weeks, isn't it? I guess that was the silly season again; I was in Milano at the end of July, most people were talking about it...

Rgds

 

Et tu?

 

Exactly. Nerofer, you bring up strong arguments, but too much of it is speculation. I especially don't buy the Santander insinuations. Again, the team is not going to handicap one of their drivers for the title sponsor, much less a secondary one like Santander that wasn't even on the car in 2008 and 2009.

Also, it's been well established that MS was burned out at the end of 2006 (he has said this in many interviews) and he did not want to stay on and take Massa's seat and put Felipe's career on hold since MS liked him very much. That's why he quit - straight from Michael's mouth. I sincerely doubt that MS was scared of Raikkonen - anything else is speculation.

Great point. Comes back in a brand new team with a quick young teammate after being away from F1 for years - had the balls to do that a mere 3 years later when he was supposedly "scared" to face Kimi? In actuality, it backs up what MS said in 2006 even more. By 2010 his batteries were recharged and he was hungry again.

I've got to say, anyone that thinks that Kimi could have come into Ferrari and beat MS are crazy. Ferrari was Michael's team, he was still blindingly quick in his upper 30s and the facts don't lie: MS thrashed Massa and Kimi lost to him. Kimi fans like to make countless excuses for that loss, but it happened. As a Kimi fan, I was very disappointed in 2008.

 

Yep. MS pre Mercedes F1 ensured his team mates were below his level and could never race him. One of my biggest disappointments regarding the man as we all know he could beat anybody but he for some reason wasn't as confident.

This and his lack of sportsmanship will I'm sure be a personal regret when he is reflecting on his career as an old grand father.

A great driver with flaws ... like the rest of us .
Pete

 

You just don't know that. That's what people say about Alonso now.

Maybe it's the Ferrari team model? I agree with it. Makes perfect sense to have a number 1 and 2. It's with good reason that MS was number 1 at Ferrari, and you can't argue with the results, but to say it was at his insistence is probably stretching things.

 

I wound't say its speculation; if we want to be pedantic, call it an hypothesis? Others have spent more time than me on the subject, for instance:

THE TRUTH ABOUT KIMI RAIKKONEN, FERRARI AND SANTANDER IN 2008 | F1 Race Reviews

think what you want, some coincidence between dates, press declaration, and the signing of Santander are a bit mind-boggling...

Rgds

 

Don't know if it is stretching things; Karun Chandhook's article about Alain Prost in "Motorsport magazine" (it's online; and like almost all frenchmen, I was not a fan of Alain; he never was very popular here) lists Alain's team mates, and that just leaves you wondering:

The notable ones were:
René Arnoux (1982) Niki Lauda (1984, 1985) Keke Rosberg (1986) Ayrton Senna (1988, 1989) Nigel Mansell (1990) Jean Alesi (1991) Damon Hill (1993)
So Prost had had some competition from "the other car", didn't he?

I have respect for Michael Schumacher, I just wished that, for once, in his first racing career, he had some competiton from the other car. And saying that the other driver was submitted to him at his insistence has been said by countless journos, some of them rather respectable, as Nigel Roebuck.

It doesn't detract from what he has acheived, but it somewhat lacks sportmanship.

Rgds

 

I still think it's a stretch. Ferrari seems to like it that way, so to put it all on MS is possibly a bit harsh.

Of course, I don't know either way I'm just speculating like the rest of us.

Again, it just doesn't make sense that if his ego or whatever was so fragile that he required a weak team mate, then why make the come back? Also, I can't imagine Ferrari giving him a weak team mate if they weren't quite sure he was the real deal in the first place.

Like I said, just thinking out loud, really.

 

I read this and....I'm kinda lost for words. But it sounds like a fairy tale to me. Having said that, every thing has its dark secrets. Even Ferrari.

 

That site's name - F1 Bias - fits it perfectly. It's a bunch of blog fantasy with zero basis in fact. If you look around the site, it's entirely dedicated to Kimi Raikkonen and operated by some guy named Soren who is probably Finnish.

It's also clear that the guy despises Alonso, here's a little gem from his review of the Canadian Grand Prix:

"I have to mention the atrocious behaviour that started when Eddie Jordan begun interviewing Vettel on the podium. The boos from the crowd were very loud, annoying and not to mention, disrespectful. Vettel ignored them professionally. And then it became clear who the culprits were. And I was not surprised. The booing faded into Alonso chants. “Alonso, Alonso” and so on. Like I said on Twitter, Alonso fans are proving their low IQ with this display.

And no wonder it’s fans of a driver that is found to be lacking a moral compass many times, that show this behaviour. I guess they belong together. Mind you, these are adults. Grown men. I have nothing but disgust for such a childish, stupid and juvenile behaviour. That is not how you behave. And there was no reason for it whatsoever. Shame on you. And Alonso did nothing to try and silence them. He could have, but didn’t. "



Your typical Kimi fanboy, still bitter that he was sacked by Ferrari in favor of Alonso. I'd take any wild theories he has about the whole thing with a grain of salt...

 

Funny stuff. Kimi is very talented but despised testing, which was one of his downfalls at Ferrari. He's perfect in the current environment.

 

But OF COURSE it is biased, and OF COURSE it comes from a Kimi fan. That's not the point…
The point is that someone took the time to list press declarations, race results and dates, and make these correspond. It gives you another angle of view, it is "funny stuff" as say "classic308": it opens different questions. The comments of the guy are of zero interest.
The correspondance between the date of some declarations and race results makes you wonder, that's all. Then you make what you want of this, it opens another perspective that you may - or not - consider appropriate.

We are speaking about Ferrari, and everyone with a slight interest in their history knows that there is no such thing that a decision that was not, at least partly, politically motivated. Some decisions are 1% politics + X % logic + X % technicals, but all their decisions have some political factor inside. Remember what a young Niki Lauda said after his first visit at Maranello and Fiorano, at the end of 1973, just after signing its first contract:
"with all these impressive installations, with their own test track, with all their knowledge, I was then wondering: how come that they do not win every Grand Prix?"
It's an emotional and political environment, first and foremost (after all, this is the country of a guy named Machiavel… if the rationale for firing Kimi was that the guy was not delivering the results they were expecting from him, why then having kept a drive for Felipe Massa in 2012 and 2013 ?
The only time in their history that logics and rationale were first and foremost the rule was when Jean Todt and Ross Brawn were at the helm, and a certain MS at the wheel…and guess what? remember Niki's question above? Well: they did won almost everything, then, didn't they? just like a steamroller; not my favourite period, I have to say…

The reference to that article was just to stir the brew of thoughts, to show that there is another way to look at this; of course I don't BELIEVE this to be the TRUTH. It's just another perspective, that's all. There were politics involved with the decision not to keep Kimi; perhaps we will know more after some years. Kimi himself said last year something on these lines (more or less) "I spent a nice time at Ferrari, I bear no grudge; some people could have acted with more grace towards me at the end, but that's life…"
Have you read in the new book about Forghieri his views on John Surtees departure in 1966? Almost fifty years later, his views are that the famous argument between Surtees and Dragoni at Le Mans was in fact staged, because Enzo decided: "Surtees must go; find a way to implement this"…
Does that make Forghieri's views the "true truth"? well if you ask me...I doubt they are. It's another point of view, that's all. That's what make Ferrari's history so unique.

As for myself, I still believe the Kimster should stay at Lotus; "they leave him alone, and he knows what he is doing".

Rgds

 

Good question, although they have Alonso so Massa isn't as important. They should have fired him years ago, though. Thing is, the team seems to like him and he gets on well with Alonso so they probably don't want to rock the boat. If he's retained after this year I will be shocked. Personally, I hope Kimi goes back to Ferrari.

If he stays at Lotus he will never win another WDC. Kimi wants to win.

 

You do really hope he goes back to Ferrari? Well, why not but as for myself, I really don't know. In a way, I find the idea attractive, but on the other hand I'm not that convinced that this could be more than a rumor. True, it seems that the bridges have not been burned between him and Ferrari, and they know him well, but would this make any sense?

From Ferrari's point of view, probably too much diplomacy involved in keeping Fernando happy with this. And as they both are about the same age, and more or less same profile, wouldn't a younger bloke make more sense?

From Kimi's point of view, too much politics, and besides I'm not sure he would be in a position to win more races at Ferrari: judging by their cars of the past two seasons, well...

So, except if Fernando moves to Red Bull (the Sebastian / Fernando duo would be fun to watch...), I would say that staying at Lotus is the best bet for Kimi. But we know that he has just say that he will take a decision based on "gut feeling", and that due to this, his decision will probably seem strange to many.

Oh well, that's guessing. The summer break is too long indeed; I wish that Spa would be at the end of this week...

Rgds

 

I'm not sure he did/does 'despise' testing..... Much of the stuff I've seen & read suggests that's not true. I don't think he liked the politics and PR BS that he had to do. Many of his engineers have said he's a great test driver and provides solid, if 'succinct' feedback. (Remember Monaco where he did an installation lap and said the steering sucks. Missed FP1 while they changed it for him.... Many teams would have said, 'Lettuce is good with it, just drive the thing!' That they did such a big change based on one slow lap suggests they trust him.)

Personally, I still think he's as quick as anyone if he's 'happy'. And he does seem happy at Fauxtus - Witness some of the 'tongue in cheek' videos they've done with him. I'd love to see him alongside Kid Index in a Can - I think a few folk may be very surprised at what he can do. Unfortunately, don't think that'll happen and I don't see him back at Ferrari either.

Cheers,
Ian

 

+1

I'd love to see him at Red Bull too, although he fits in well with Lotus. Lotus' big issue is that they don't have much monies. Even if he where to race for free next year (and gets a share in Lotus F1 in return based on performance), they need a big sponsor and they need one quick.

 

I hope he doesn't stay at Lotus, that would be a downer and the least interested outcome by far. If he goes to Red Bull:

-We get to see Seb head-to-head against a great driver in the same car. Could he shut his detractors up once and for all by beating Kimi or has it been Newey all these years? (For the record I think Seb would win)

If he goes to Ferrari:

-We get to see Kimi and Fernando face off. Two very similar approaches to driving, IMO it would be the best driver pair in history. VERY smart drivers and it would be incredible to see who comes out on top

-Fernando leaves and goes to Red Bull. We watch and see if another McLaren 07 saga unfolds at Red Bull and we get to watch Seb face off against his chief rival of the last few years. Fascinating, although I really don't want Ferrari to lose ALO.

Lotus...well, I guess that would be OK but sorta disappointing given the possibilities. Lotus seems to be hemorrhaging money and despite being successful can't find major sponsors. Does Kimi really want to be in a team without solid financial stability (and now minus James Allison) future during the chaos that is a regulation change?

Plus, if Kimi leaves Lotus that opens up a seat for a talented driver like the Hulk. I want to see him get a shot in a top car.

 

Anybody beating Kimi proves nothing ... Kimi's just lost interest again. We will surely witness a repeat of this.

Great driver but my big toe has more motivation
Pete

 

+1