F12 Initial Observations and Comp to 458 Spider | FerrariChat

F12 Initial Observations and Comp to 458 Spider

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by 575joe, Aug 12, 2013.

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  1. 575joe

    575joe Formula Junior

    Aug 27, 2006
    324
    #1 575joe, Aug 12, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Long time owner of various F cars, most recently a 2011 458 Italia, which was replaced by a 458 Spider. (I am keeping the Spider as well as the F12).

    Just received my 2014 F12.

    Both are extraordinary cars. Easily the best Ferraris ever made in my opinion, and without a doubt, the best in their class, of any car ever made - current or past.
    I absolutely love the Spider for its sound, nimbleness, feeling of agility and lightness (even though I know it is not very light, it “feels” light).

    Then F12 is more grown up, mature, more dignified in its feel and approach, but still very much a Ferrari in every way. I have had a 575, a 599 and now this. Among the big V12’s this feels the best by far. It is extremely strong, fast, and composed. It can have a Jekyll and Hyde personality. Docile when driven as a grand-tourer with my significant other in the car, then absolutely ferocious flat out above 5500 rpm.

    Beautifully finished inside and out. Looks much, much better in person than in the pictures. Has a purposeful, aggressive stance, yet retains the elegance we have come to expect from the big V12’s. I am particularly happy with the exterior color I picked (Rosso Fiorano).

    As usual, the best attributes are the engine and transmission. The engine is an absolute, docile/aggressive gem. Strong at any RPM, crazy strong above 5500 rpm. The transmission is, as usual for Ferrari, just brilliant. Without any doubt the best transmission and the best transmission software in the business. Instant shifts up and down, with just the right amount of thump during aggressive shifts (or seamless shifts at a leisurely pace).

    One thing that particularly impressed me it the amount of traction that the F12 has, thanks to the excellent F1 Trac electronic differential and traction control software. Again, easily the best in the business. On a sunny dry day, it can deploy almost 100% of its torque with only limited wheel spin - even in first gear. More importantly, if it does slip, the diff and software optimise the traction so that one is barely aware that anything is taking place, while still delivering ferocious acceleration and keeping you on the road. (Most other traction control software, in other brands, abruptly limit forward thrust, and spoil the experience, so that you are keenly aware that it is intervening to save you from yourself).

    Compared to other high horsepower/high torque cars I have had, theF12 hooks up by far the best. As empirical proof, I use an accelerometer on all my cars to baseline how they perform/accelerate in each gear. My benchmark is my 2012 Nissan GT-R (lightly modified) and it delivers just over 1.0 G acceleration in 1st gear, .8 G in second gear and .6 G in third gear. (All measurements are from a roll – not “launches”). The F12 finds enough traction to deliver .9G and occasionally more, in 1st, and match the GT-R in second, third and 4th gear. No other front engine, rear-wheel-drive car I have ever had, was ever able to hook up and deliver more than .8G in 1st gear. None came close to matching the F12 in second and higher gears.

    The ride/handling trade-off is also very well handled. Very composed, comfortable ride, and still it corners very flat and very stable. (While not a “track car” as such, due to its stature, size and weight, I have no doubt it could set some very fast lap times if one has access to lots of free tires!).

    So as for as the inevitable comparisons to the Spider:

    The F12 feels heavier/more substantial and feels much more composed, mature, settled, but also more wieldy. The Spider feels more frenetic, more edgy (in a good way), but more connected.

    The F12 is clearly stronger/faster, but the Spider feels more alive, more responsive; gear shifts “feel” quicker (might not be any quicker, they just “seem” more immediate). Driving the two back-to-back, the Spider does not disappoint with feeling underpowered. It provides a sensation of comparable seat-of-the-pants acceleration (although there is absolutely no doubt the F12 would leave it far behind in a straight line).

    The F12 sound has a more technical, more complex, more sophisticated sound from the engine, and from outside it sounds more pleasing to the ear. However, from inside, particularly with the top down, the sound of the Spider is intoxicating, and much better resolved than the F12 interior sound. The extensive sound insulation, coupe design, and different tones that make up the V12 sound, results in the 12 cylinder cars sounding quite muffled from the inside. The F12 is the best of the most recent F12s, but still not as thrilling as the V8’s from the inside. (It would be nice to find a way to pipe more of the fabulous outside “wailing” from the V12 to the inside of the car).

    If one is blessed with living in a country or region where there are few speed limits, open twisty roads, and benevolent law enforcement, then the F12 will make for a fabulous driving experience. (I can occasionally find those conditions on a Sunday morning drive in the countryside). If however, you spend more time in populated areas, with less than sympathetic law enforcement, you will get more thrills per mile from the Spider. (The 458s are the only cars I have owned that are nearly as exciting to drive at moderate accelerations and speeds, and in somewhat congested areas, as they are flat out (because of the fabulous sound, amazingly agile engine and transmission, and lower gearing-see the speeds in each gear on the attached chart). The F12 can be very thrilling and satisfying, but it needs space and Italian-style law enforcement to be fully exploited.

    So in summary – both spectacular cars. Both definitely worth owning. Ferrari continues to be at the very top of its game. A good time to be a car addict!
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  2. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
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    Jun 11, 2013
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    Wonderful write up, information and pictures. Thank you.
     
  3. chet

    chet F1 Rookie

    Jun 9, 2007
    2,959
    Chicago
    Fantastic review. Thanks.

    Beautiful cars.
     
  4. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Apr 6, 2004
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    Wonderful detailed narrative comparing the Spider with the F12. Thank you!
    CH
     
  5. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,465
    VIR Raceway
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    Peter Krause
    Great write up and fascinating measures! Do you use a Performance Box to measure?

    I work with quite a few Historic Grand Prix and older Can-Am racing cars, and it never ceases to amaze me that the modern street cars (aided by modern tires, also) match or exceed these ne plus ultra race cars, of a certain vintage...

    Thank you! The Rosso Fiorano is stunning. Saw a Fly Yellow (or whatever they call the Giallo now) driving down Ocean Avenue in Carmel this morning. Very pretty!
     
  6. Noblesse Oblige

    Noblesse Oblige F1 Veteran

    Nov 7, 2011
    6,114
    Three Places
    Very perceptive analysis and write up.

    I think you nailed it; the 458 affords the fun-factor at speeds and in conditions well below its limits. And that is what road driving is about 99% of the time.

    PS. FWIW I measured 1.1 g on a roll in 1st gear in my 5300 lb SUV. It is a BMW X5M with extra boost and modified exhaust. Of course, being real short geared, first is done for at 35 mph. The point is that you can always manipulate gearing and horsepower to get ultra quick results, but that is not driving fun.
     
  7. dustman

    dustman F1 World Champ
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    Jun 12, 2007
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    Great write up....I think the 458 is gimmicky looking, however the F12 is absolutely striking and deserving of the Ferrari label.
     
  8. 720EC

    720EC Karting

    Dec 24, 2004
    205
    New York & OC
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    Scuderia
    Great write up and comparison
     
  9. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jul 3, 2006
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    FelipeNotMassa
    +1

    Where do you live and drive your wonderful cars?
     
  10. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    7,795
    Unrelated, but: what about those mud flaps in the 458? Are they detachable?
     
  11. SlowV8

    SlowV8 Karting
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    Apr 21, 2013
    110
    Great write up. After thinking about it for some time I came to the conclusion that the 458 is actually rather strange and goofy looking. It has an odd futuristic look from many angles and looks good only from a straight on side angle. The f12 looks great in my opinion but not in every color. It needs an elegant classy color combo. The 458 simply seems too childish after the f12 was released.
     
  12. 575joe

    575joe Formula Junior

    Aug 27, 2006
    324
    To protect the sides of the car from the sandpaper effect of dirt and gravel, (on the road as well as track), in addition to applying 3M film along the rocker panels, I custom make transparent Lexan mud flaps for all my cars.
    They are clamped on using a simple screw and clip arrangement. Easily removable and no body paint damage.
     
  13. dustman

    dustman F1 World Champ
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    Jun 12, 2007
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    +458

    The Italia is trying too hard to look good, but it's a futuristic whiff...looks like the riced up NSX's one sees in Los Angeles. And the way many owners are ordering their 458 with one color body, then a black roof, gawd awful wheels, tacky interior colors on the...car will go down as a technical triumph that more average drivers could own, but with dated looks.

     
  14. vf430

    vf430 Formula Junior

    Dec 16, 2009
    666
    SoCal
    Best color for F12 by far! Thanks for your review.
     
  15. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
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    Jun 11, 2013
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    I completely disagree with you fellas who are negative on the 458 looks. Of course its subjective so you are entitled to your opinion. To my eyes, the 458 is the best iteration of the current Ferrari design language.

    The F12 is very handsome, but cannot break away from the fact that its a traditional front mid engine design. The mid engine 458 affords them more options for creativity. It looks like a supercar and original. The F12 reminds me a lot of a modern version of a 275- a very good thing- mixed with some 550- another very good thing. And Im no 599 hater- that reminds me of a modern Daytona. All good things! :)

    I think the 458 and F12 are both very impressive designs and will go down as some of the best in Ferrari history.
     
  16. Surfah

    Surfah F1 Rookie

    Dec 20, 2011
    3,144
    If you don't like the looks of the 458, why did you post a thread about wanting to buy a used 458 when the price drops down to 200K? You're willing to shell out 200 large to settle for a used car whose appearance you dislike? Seems asinine.
     
  17. dustman

    dustman F1 World Champ
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    Jun 12, 2007
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    #17 dustman, Aug 13, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Recognize the reality that performance can trump design (and vice versa) when the price/value relationship is met.
    For instance, many prefer the look of the 360, but performance of the 430. When the relationship is met for them, moving up to a 430 can be justified, warts and all.
    From prior note re: end user interesting style...

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  18. Surfah

    Surfah F1 Rookie

    Dec 20, 2011
    3,144
    Aah, why some choose to own GTRs then? ;)
     
  19. dustman

    dustman F1 World Champ
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    Jun 12, 2007
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    I sure did...what a performer, and they are now significantly faster/better than what I owned.
    Makes the price/value relationship more challenging for say a 458...
     
  20. Noblesse Oblige

    Noblesse Oblige F1 Veteran

    Nov 7, 2011
    6,114
    Three Places
    You don't really believe this internet blather do you? Best to ignore.
     
  21. Randyslovis

    Randyslovis Formula Junior

    Jul 7, 2011
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    Atlanta, GA
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    Randall J Slovis
    #21 Randyslovis, Aug 13, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thank you for the great write up. It corroborates a recent post of mine regarding spider in 458 section. I envy your collection of beautiful cars and again applaud the very informative post.
    Randy
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  22. Surfah

    Surfah F1 Rookie

    Dec 20, 2011
    3,144
    LOL, I chose to give dustman the benefit of the doubt regarding what I construed to be troll-like comments. He clarified his opinion:)
     
  23. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran

    Dec 4, 2004
    6,888
    Cape Town,SA
    Full Name:
    Jacques
    Great post and summary, the spec of both of your cars is simply stunning. Its nice to read insight about what these cars are like to drive from an owner as apposed to a journalists, I tend to find review like your much more interesting.

    I had a drive in a 458 spider a few weeks ago and the experience was truly amazing(am lucky enough to live in a place where law enforcement generally looks the other way).
     
  24. Garretto

    Garretto F1 Veteran

    Sep 3, 2003
    5,075
    Bilbao, Spain
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    Rodolfo Di Pietro
    What colour is the 458?
     
  25. 575joe

    575joe Formula Junior

    Aug 27, 2006
    324
    Blue Oceano.
    It is a Maserati special color, that can be specified on Ferraris alsop.
     

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