375+ # 0384

Sir, I am contributing to this thread, and have been active following it for 3 years. If I have a comment, I post it, just like everyone else. If you don’t like what I post, don’t read it. I am simple questions that no one has answered. Don’t cry fire in the theater, unless there is a fire.
Flobert

 

+1

 

I think we have a key term here in "ALMOST". While there has been hanky panky with cars being renumbered for tax purposes or for other reasons that have nothing to do with theft, in this case the car was renumbered specifically to hide the identity BECAUSE it was stolen and people were looking for it. Had Jacques been in possession of paperwork for 0394 and wished to register the car as 0394 to avoid taxes or for some other reason, I could accept that may have had other reasons. But he did not have the paperwork for 0394, since 0394 never existed.

Why register the car as 0394 and alter the stamping than to a number that never existed than to obscure the identity of the car to the authorities?

Both you and Enigma are in denial here. You may not wish to accept the facts because Jacques was a member of the Ferrari community and was revered, but this is just silly. If not to obscure the identity of the car, why did he change the number???? Why not just register it as 0384????

He changed the number so the stolen car would not be recovered. Apparently he got off the hook by presenting the car as 0394 to Interpol. At that point the FBI inquired to Ferrari as to existence of 0394, and Ferrari never replied. The ruse was successful and it prevented Interpol from verifying the identity of the car.

 

+1 - If he knew it was stolen then he had the moral if not legal obligation to ensure full restitution or return based on the agrieved parties wishes.

 

Since you have raised this matter in a reasonably ugly manner, I ask you two things. If you have been watching just this one thread for three years then please do tell why only joined Ferrarichat in January 2012. Secondly, as others have said when Mr Ocean Joe has been a fantastic supporter of this thread by posting an enormous amount of information, whether you agree with it or not, why are you chosing to denigrate him. On that note can I please ask a couple of questions;

Who are you?
Do you have any relationship to anyone else on this board?
What is your relationship to Joe Ford?
What relationship do you have with Mr. Chris Gardner?
What makes you (or anyone) a Ferrari man?

Just asking some questions.

Donning my flame proof suit now.

 

That may well be a pertinent question Timmmmmmmmmmy, but your profile seems pretty blank too!

 

Yeah well fair cop, I have been a member since '06, first under iwanna860monza and now Timmmmmy (since changed email address 3 years ago). Dont own any Ferrari(s) but love them, especially the pre Fiat era racing cars, hell love most classic racing and GT cars, live in Wellington, New Zealand, mid 40s SWM. It all sounds like some sort of profile for a dating show, I am looking for a woman that enjoys long walks on the beach and is tall, dark and handsome LOL.

To answer my own questions I dont know anyone else involved in this thread but think this is one of the best threads ever. I have some faith in Ocean Joe due to his openness in this thread, my personal opinion the jury is out on Chris Gardner. I have no idea what makes someone a Ferrari man (or not) - does loving them count ?

My main interest (as a bystander) is to see that justice is done for Kleve - Lawson and that some semblance of the truth is uncovered.

Timothy Russell

 

Your posts speak otherwise unless you believe the title of this thread is 'I like Mr. Chris Gardner'.

Post #1 You challenge the opinion of Fchat member Aardy, a well-respected historian and contributor on this site. Your words, 'in both cases you are knowingly and willfully wrong'. The subject of your challenge? A car belonging to Mr. Gardner.

Post #2 A post praising Mr. Gardner.

Post #3 A post in Italian where you praise Mr. Gardner and then, in an ironic twist, suggest that posts on this thread should be about 0384 and not personalities.

Post #4 A general post about 0384.

Post #5 A post in which you impugn the character of Ocean Joe (and to a lesser extent Mr. Kleve). Which would make perfect sense- again- if the title of this thread were 'I like Mr. Chris Gardner'.

Sir I submit to you that if we are in the Flobert Theater, it is indeed on fire and someone needs to cry out to that effect for the good of all patrons.

 

Aren't we all.
Cheers Mate and sincere thanks for always keeping it interesting.
Best,
Dave

 

Further, who- in all of Europe- was in a better position to know exactly what 0394 was and wasn't.

 

+1, you nailled it. I couldnt have put it better. Will we get a reply or some vague accusation of slander/ libel?

 

I'm not in denial. I just said that we - or at least I - don't know his motive for using another number and I try to be able to tell apart a fact from a guess.

 

Flobert,

I bet you disclosed your true identity in the pic.

Am I a "Ferrari man?" Hmmmm. I doubt you possess the qualifications to opine. My first ownership interest was a co-ownership interest in a Ferrari Daytona coupe, 1989ish, which I paid for by trading a brand new Testarossa obtained from Ferrari of Los Gatos, flown in from the factory. My fourth Ferrari was again a co-ownership interest, this time it is a 375 Plus, an interest which grew and crystallized as a result of skill, due diligence, and relentless effort - in and out of court - an almost four year long gamble few are capable of doing. Unlike others known to the Ferrari community, I don't buy stolen cars, I don't renumber stolen cars, I don't hire N.Y. attorneys to skillfully hide my tracks, I don't confuse vehicle build sheets with engine build sheets, I verify an agent's authority with his principal before I do business, I don't have an agent sign an affidavit making the agent return the money in the event he exceeds his authority, I ask my partner if he bought the parts before I sue the prior owner for them, etc, etc. At some point one's common sense compels one to realize those are not all mere accidents. Maybe that disqualifies me from being a Ferrari man, and if it did, then the disqualification would be a badge of honor. Honor. There's that pesky word again. Honor. What would have been the result if in January of 1989 the two men had approached 76 year old Kleve and offered him the full value for his car? No one, and I repeat, no one ever did. Instead they selfishly walked away so he would not know the value of what he had - they had other plans for it. Then in 1990, still no full value offer. Then again in 1999, still no full value offer. Hmmmmm.

I respect the historical record and automotive history. I hope I have made a small and constructive contribution, and also earned a nice payday at the end of this particular, hard-fought race. Yep, I got a little banged up, but that's the nature of the sport. Fortunately, the entire Ferrari community will get to decide the contribution years from now, when the dust has settled, the drivers long since retired, and the cheerleaders with single digit post histories are long forgotten.

Until then, . . . . wait . . . . wait for it . . . is that a fat lady I hear singing? . . . or the throaty, inimitable growl of twelve symphonious cylinders exploding to life with their song . . . anxious to again play their part in a script that was written the day the second automobile pulled aside the first, and the race was on - cue the music . . . and now, live from the Ferrari Museum in Italy, the real star of this saga, the beast known as 0384AM . . . imagine driving a car like this in 1954, at 4am in the morning, slowing to 140mph due to the rain, on '54 era tires, with '54 era headlites, on an open road, in the '54 LeMans, like Frolian Gonzales did . . . balls of steel my friends . . . balls of steel.

Joe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8XVkhmJoEQ

 

A brilliant response Ocean Joe.

 

Thanks Tim. Glad to know you!

John

 

Joe, I appreciate your contribution to this thread. You have always been open with your involvement and I have read your comments in the light of your interest in the case.

Simple question, what do you consider full value was in 1989, 1999/1990 ?

Finally, and assuming the 50/50 settlement arrangement is true and the car sells at auction for say $10 million what will the Kleve heirs end up with ?

Kind regards

Kim

 

I like this thread, it’s really a drama. Full of vinegar !

I read the newspaper article, and wow!

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130826/NEWS0107/308260019

But something I don’t understand. 1. If this news article yesterday it was from a Cincinnati paper, why wasn’t Kristie Kleve quoted? I keep waiting for the woman in the story to emerge with her story. 2. The other thing I don’t get, and I am indeed a dumb blonde, but why if this is settled and all parties agreed to a good share of a BIG prize as the article says , then why is Ocean Joe still bashing Jacques Swaters ?

And my last comment is this ; Every time I see anyone conflict the mantra of this thread, or raise questions, there is a big conspiracy from what appears to me the Ocean cheer leaders , questioning people’s real identity, who they posters are, and even posters asking for those people to be banned by the Mods. Looks like a school yard fight involving a bunch of boys with no marbles, against guys with marbles. Ha ha !

So, I ask, who’s got the marbles now? Who owns the actual red car in the photograph in the newspaper article ?

 

I can answer your questions without even thinking. I agree, Joe Ford aka/Ocean Joe has fanned this thread and tried his case like the attorney he is. He got everyone’s attention. It was his job. So, let me answer your relevant questions. First, my identity is no more important that any of the members on this thread. The release of information flows because we don’t have to discuss ourselves. I am a no body in this 0384AM drama, and I remain that way. Some people here think their identity makes for credibility – surely that doesn’t add up.
Your questions:
Who are you? Weekly I am in Maranello, when you are not......I am just back from Modena.
I race the Mille Miglia every year, when you do not. The smell of vintage Ferrari’s is in my garage. I am no better a man from this, but I am passionate. I also can tell a fake from the real thing. I can tell this of people and of Ferrari’s. For 500 Euro, I tell you who I am. For that 500 E, I give you a ride in my '50 Ferrari also.

Do you have any relationship to anyone else on this board? I am not dating, nor am I available – sorry !

What is your relationship to Joe Ford? I never met him. I know Joe Ford is an attorney working for Gardner for many years. I know that part of his job was to enter this Chat room and try the case with the information he alone decided to release. I also see that his job was to slander Jacques Swaters for a reason. As this is case is settled, I see no reason for all the truth not to be told. I read the thread as I have done and this; Last Boy Scout, White Knight and the ‘I'm not the kind of guy you cheat, in a contract, or in a court’’....seems something smells in this.

What relationship do you have with Mr. Chris Gardner?
I bought a Gullwing from him years ago. I heard he was a principle in the Ferrari 0384AM ordeal . I heard he paid off the Christie Kleeve girl, financed 100% of the settlement, and negotiated alone the settlement with Florence Swaters, Jacques Swaters son and Bonham’s alone and without Ocean Joe being present . I heard that at the Mille this year.
What makes you (or anyone) a Ferrari man?
If a dog speaks to me, I would listen. But, I would not tell him to shut up unless he barked. I own, breathe, race and live Ferrari – yet only vintage ones. I have respect for good custodians of Ferrari cars. These are treasures and jewels to me, and need to be preserved. I think being a Ferrari Man supports the life for the passion for the car. I think Jacques Swaters had this passion and he had it for 0384AM. In my opinion Kleve had no passion for the car, he just hoarded 0384AM , took it apart, as these type of engineers do. They take things apart and never put them back. Forget about the stolen part of the story . I remind you the car was stolen by American Thieves, NOT Europeans. The American system failed to act on recovering the car and Kleve failed, and NOT because it was re-numbered. The FBI knew it was renumbered the entire time. But Belgian law said in the Royal court that Swaters ownership was legal. It was Belgian law that prevailed in the Swaters ownership. More on this, if you don’t bark at me ! But first, let’s get out of first gear ! The engine is not warm yet...
I entered this thread because I actually got enraged at this Ford character bombarding Gardner and his cheap shots at Jacques Swaters - sorry, I live in truth and that was it, not more. My post was a reaction, not an action.
I know much of this 0384AM Ferrari, I studied this car for many years and know precisely what was done to it in Modena to bring life to it, and I also have a folder of photos when it laid in a muddy field in the rain a for decades.
I also read this thread for the past month. The contributor's are intelligent and have studied this with good attention to detail. But, alore ! The facts have not been told here. Only what was intended to be posted was posted. In Ocean Joe had a job, he performed on this thread and his job steered this terrible ordeal to a closure. The car deserves more than all the ramblings I read, much of what is a lie. What I see now, as from 1987, there is yet another rogue agent emerging. Like all of Swater’s agents and all of Kleve’s agents, the smell of money creates an illusion other than the truth for non-Ferrari people. I have nothing to prove, just wait for the fat lady to sing, just listen to the music until that time.
So, whatever is posted here slowly emerges to be known at some future time as the truth or another deception based on greed – not passion for this Ferrari car. I know one thing.... wait...in time ...the truth be known.

Flobert

 

Flobert, you may be a master baitor.

Truth is not slander.

Speaking of truth, let's see if you know what it is. Truth builds credibility, as do honest posts. Honest . . . honor . . .damn, that pesky word again.

Post that "folder of photos" of 0384AM when it lay in the muddy field for decades. Go ahead. Post the photos - they better not be the photos I have already posted. Back up your words or back up the truck for the load of bs you posted.

Until that time you are total bs. You are a cheerleader who cannot distinguish a principle from a principal, regardless if misspelled or not. But wait. As I recall, you had the same problem with moral and morale. That my friend is your subconscious "inner voice" battling your conscious "outer voice" - generally known as a Ferrarian slip.

Post your "folder of photos" so this board can see if your outer posting voice spoke truth.

Otherwise, back to the dustbin with you. I bet you were born on July 7 - let your subconscious answer that one. LOL

Joe, Just Havin Fun

 

To All,

On August 15 Cincinnatian Bill Victor passed - another from the old guard moves on to that racetrack in the sky.

Bill was an honored and honorable Automotive Historian and Classic Car Expert.

Bill was also a witness in this saga, giving testimony in both the 1989 and the 2010 cases.

For years Bill was the Master of Ceremonies at the annual Ault Park Concours d'Elegance in Cincinnati. There is now a prize that celebrates his memory and contribution to the classic car world.

He had an encylopedic memory for car facts and figures -- I teased him about how well he hid his teleprompters LOL.

Rest In Peace,

Joe

 

Thank you Joe for posting what is sad news indeed.
I was talking to someone last night, lamenting the fact that a favorite photo was lost to the mists of time: Bill Victor standing atop a pair of NOS Bugatti Type 41 engines in Karl's lot (where we recovered wheels and sundry bits from 0384 [see post #12 in this thread]).

Imagine a guy who is 6'4" standing on top of two of the biggest road engines ever made with a big smile on his face. That's how I'll remember him.

Here's a link to Bill's obituary, giving some inkling as to the interesting life he led
William K Victor

In particular, find the mention of Sports Car Recyclers. Bill's idea was ahead of its time and the business plan fell victim to that. They launched shortly before PC's really came into being and had to rely on a computer system purchased surplus from a hospital that had nothing like the capability we take for granted today. When Sports Car Recyclers closed, they liquidated the inventory in an auction.

*Bill personally took responsibility for the remaining business debts and spent the next five years of his life paying them back.*

He was neither legally nor for that matter morally obligated to repay one penny but his feeling was people had invested in him (his business) and he was going to make good on that.

Bill Victor's personal integrity served as an example to me and all others who came across his path. It is something I've never forgotten, a story I've told many times, and I'm extremely grateful to have met and been mentored by someone of such exceptional character.

Dave Powers

 

Here’s another article;

London auction will end fight over vintage Ferrari


I just read the story in USA today.

Seems to have gone Viral.

 

I would also like to see any new information from anyone?

Most of what Ocean Joe has posted imo has definitely not been vitriol or character assasination but instead has been questioning what happened and giving information that would seem to show a pattern of behaviour back in '89. If anyone, including Flobert has actual knowledge or evidence or information or anything of what happened back in 1989 please do tell, and would be nice to read specifics please. Educate me, I have an open mind.

 

Summary:

"I am a no body in this 0384AM drama"
"For 500 Euro, I tell you who I am"
I heard that at the Mille this year:
"he paid off the Christie Kleeve girl, financed 100% of the settlement, and negotiated alone the settlement with Florence Swaters, Jacques Swaters son and Bonham’s alone and without Ocean Joe being present "

M