375+ # 0384

As Noah Cross said in Chinatown, "politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they hang around long enough".
He might have added Ferraris.


There's a lot that has to shake out here but eventually it will add to the car's notoriety.

 

Please Excuse Me.
Jacques Swaters didn't *rescue* anything with respect to 0384.

Dave (what's his name) and his buddies from Oxford, Ohio didn't 'rescue' anything when they stole this car from Karl Kleve.
Guy Anderson (if I have his name right) didn't 'rescue' anything when he fenced the car in Atlanta, GA to Europe.

Jacques Swaters, distinguished WWII record aside (Mr. Kleve made a little teeny tiny contribution to that particular skirmish as well- just for the record), as sure as Rob Lay can quote OLD SCHOOL to good effect ,

Did. Not. Rescue. Anything.
When he purchased this stolen very historic stolen competition Ferrari- that was STOLEN, then altered (some might say forged) its physical identity, and used any means he saw fit to retain it.
To his dying day Karl Kleve wanted this back.
To his dying day Jacques Swaters did whatever he could to make sure that never happened.

I'm sorry to be so pedantic or emphatic in my language. I mean you personally no disrespect.
But there lives on this board, and the car community as a whole this Fantasy that if only *someone else* (and it's easy to substitute one's self) were to have a car they would love it and keep it and treat it the way it deserves to be treated.

It's perverse.
People want to call out Karl Kleve or Walter Medlin or Basil Shadlun or (I couldn't believe I saw this) Larry Nicklin for 0267.
Growing up in Cincinnati, I heard people criticize Jimmy Ibold for not restoring his 8C2900B short chassis Zagato Spyder. I promise you Hugh Taylor is happy Jimmy didn't.
I also heard people criticize him for not restoring his 8C2300 Figoni bodied (1 of 2) Alfa. I know for a fact Patrick Ottis is happy Jimmy didn't.
And yet, if someone destroys a 250 GTE to make some Replicant you'll find a whole chorus of people who will say, 'WELL IT'S HIS CAR. HE CAN DO WHAT HE WANTS. HE CAN THROW IT IN THE GARBAGE AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. THAT'S HIS RIGHT!'

It's only original once. I know this is a lot to think about for some people (and again, I sincerely am not trying to call You out- I'm speaking in general terms here).
But I would take the GTO Steve Mitchell had over the shiny apple Ralph Lauren turned it into- every single time.
If anything, judging by the last few pages of this thread, the mechanical work performed related to 0384 after it was stolen from Karl Kleve has only served to diminish its perceived value- the theft aside.
By that I mean to say the winning bidder for 0384 when auction day comes will do well to take everything apart in a shop, write a nice check to the mechanics , and get it right.

Lastly, as much as this Fantasy would have everyone believe that the guy with all the shiniest cars is the one who keeps them in the best condition, it ain't always so.
I can't tell you how many mechanics I've talked to who've lamented the fact that the collector didn't want to spend what it takes to maintain all of his pristine stallions.
Armor All does exactly zilch for engines, trans, or any other internal moving parts that need to be Used and Maintained.
The Fantasy is that if someone gets a tatty old car and restores it, they've done some kind of social good for the world of car/art afficionados.
A restoration is only a snapshot (as is Classiche).

But all of that distracts from the real story here, the story about what Jacques Swaters did and didn't do. In this case it has nothing to do with rescuing something.

Nor for that matter does it have anything to do with what parts he had made after he took possession of this stolen car and fought all efforts to have it returned to its rightful owner.

Best,
Dave

 

Take this with you Cynthia.....
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Just got the Bonhams Goodwood catalogue. No sign of 0384

There is a TR dry sump for sale though. All we need now is a chassis number

 

I have seen cars in worse condition but wonder how much was used
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Post restoration by Bacchelli
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Have you anything constructive or destructive to say about anything relating to 0384AM that is 100% true ? With your behavior, and the other faux Police no one with any information would even come back to this sad cheering section thread. Can I ask one question to all the trolls out there .... why the withholding information and downhill comments on this car ?

I have an inside track on the court records, and I am not posting anything further now. You guys are too rough. Now, you get no more ice cream. Stay stupid, it’s better for your egos, considering 90% of what you say is not near the truth.

But here is my closing facts that I throw to you. All is accurate. There is no ‘’my’’ in it.

The settlement was signed in March 2013 by all parties. Ford/Lawson has delayed the parts from going to Bonham’s for what appears to be a Ferrari Classiche inspection and cataloging into a September 14 sale date. Ms. Swaters fully complied with the agreement consigning the car to London with all the documents. The transaction was all hunky-dory, everyone is happy.

Suddenly, Ford files a series of motions attacking Ms. Swaters for moving the car to London as the agreement requires. Then Ford files a series of muddy affidavits not relating to the Ferrari but an attack on his client Gardener. Ms. Swater motions for the Judge to enforce the settlement, Gardener intervenes, the Judge agrees and signs an order – thus dismissing the case in the USA.

Gardener intervenes to enforce claims on Ford/Kleve the day the case is dismissed. Gardener’s now able on his intervention to ask the Judge for incarceration of Kleve/Ford the same as Swater did. He does that. The Ferrari 0384 AM is no longer in dispute and is NOT ordered sold. Judge Nadel orders that all parties to act on the agreement they signed, thus to surrender the parts and the car, and all documents to Bonham’s. The Judge says, get this out of my court, and I order all parties to perform no later than August 28. Swater/Gardner performs on time, Ford/Lawson do not perform.

Swaters/Gardner file contempt motions in Judge Nadel’s court on August 29 against Ford/Lawson’s asking the judge to incarcerate them both for 60 days, and fine them $500 a day each for their defiance of the Court’s Orders.

Then, we have Ocean’s post…’’ If Bonham's can't make the Sept 14 auction, in my view its a whole new auction house ballgame, RM, Gooding's, etc.’’ A copy of that Ferrari chat post is sent to the Judge, along with the request for jail time for Ford/Kleve. The Judge sets the hearing for September 11 to rule on those motions.

While all this is happening weeks ago Mark Ketcham shows up in Ohio to meet with Ford. It seems Ford’s stall is in the middle of a double dealing hand with this California winer or............?

As we see a few people out there with an interest in the purchase of 0384AM, I asked a well known Gullwing restorer what the RL 375 plus was valued at. He said, not less that $25M, maybe more now.

Wouldn’t it be normal Ferrari business and with all the die-cast Ferrari collectors on this thread to knock 0384AM’s originality, muddy the water and troll this car because of the zealot rumors to knock on the valuation by comparing it to a run of the mill 375MM ?

The guys I spoke to said that reunited with all the original parts and with the truthful review of the car by DK engineering, Paul Russell and study of the Ferrari classiche documentation, double reviews that this 0384AM race car could set a new world’s record for the guy who wants the best of this series, the baddest ass Ferrari of it’s day, even bearing paint from the Cuban Grand Prix of 1957.

A last statement on the car: The chassis is all original on this car. Any piece repaired was cataloged and saved. The 34 pieces stored by Kleve since the 1960’s inside are to be reunited with the car and combined constitute 100% of the original car. There is ONE piece missing, and that is the rear clip sheet metal. This was removed by Kleve and thrown away by the city when they cleared his junk pile. Also, the car was involved in no fire. It had a wiring short, and burned dash wires, but was never burned.

The red Swater’s car, now in the UK for filming and finalizing the Ferrari Classiche Certificate was never built as a replica by Swaters, nor was the chassis ever stamped 0394AM. Also, the number 0384AM was not on the chassis, it was viewed by Rousch (?) and he didn’t see it, along with several other people that viewed it. Swaters did a series of x-ray test, and it was determined in 1989/90 that is could be 0394AM, and that the ‘’9’’ was not readable in the x-ray. That car, as seen today is 100% original apart from the 34 pieces Gardener paid for that will be re-united with the car. Ferrari Classische, and DK Engineering will examine the car separately and also each piece. Currently, the original engine, purchased by Swaters is running and totally restored by Ferrari Classiche, and in the car. The replica engine is with the car, along with every piece not used in the restoration in Modena. There is a large step-by-step file process on the car.

Ms. Swater’s and Gardener met in London, with Bonham’s in January 2013 to settle this, and Ford/Kleve-Lawson signed on to the end result of that agreement. Since the signing, Ford has been trying for a way to cancel out Gardener and to take the entire deal his way by a process up until Gardener’s intervention. Gardner was the John Doe car collector in the lawsuit. It seems, Ford assumed Gardeners' identity as the principle, and Gardener jumped in with this Buzz saw attorney in Cincinnati named Zach Gottesman. It was fairly civil until Ford took a shot at Gottesman, who cuts down trees for a weekend hobby. It was Gottesman who got Gardener to intervene minutes before it was too late.

What’s next? The car will be sold with or without the parts.

All the rest of the BS out there on the car is for one reason, 5 people want the car and the offer 8 months ago was in the access of $15M with the legal problems attached.

Apart from those facts, this thread is now just sour grapes, mercenaries' agenda’s and Ocean’s three ring circus complete with dancing bears.

I am sure the fat lady will sing, someone will get a spanking, someone will drive the car up the Goodwood hill, someone will set a world’s record for the car and someone will cry.

One last fact; The car will be sold at no reserve, just like the GP Mercedes W154.

On this post, I sign off ! And so it goes.
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True.

Around 1991 Swaters stamped "0394" on the replica V12 4.9L engine, thus his second counterfeiting of a Ferrari product.

 

Your two photo's speak for themselves and smart bidders will keep them in mind. Even though stupid happens every day I still think the chance of anyone paying 30MM USD for this
Mega Bitsa are slim to none.

 

I stand corrected then. Thanks.

I did read that information in the blog of a Belgian writer with an in-depth knowledge of the early replica Ferrari, the Favre-Garnier GTO.

About 0384AM, he interviewed Michel Kruch, the owner of Exception Automobile, the dealer who imported 0384AM into Belgium. As per the invoice he paid $4,500 (175,038 Francs Belge) in February 1989 for a "40% complete car with no engine, no seats, no interior, no wheels and no bodywork in the rear."

That the only interview I've ever read of one of the early actor of this saga.

The pictures are from his blog, as well as the copy on the invoice I posted yesterday.
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......and sells it a year later for $100,000 knowing it was stolen but relying on the permission to do so by the Kings Prosecutor in Belgium.

A handsome return on his investment as well as successfully transferring all blame for any wrong doing to the new purchaser.

 

True, there are not too many good guys in that story.

 

Does anyone believe 0384 would still exist if it were left in Kleve's possession? It was his to do with as he pleased and that's fine, but I simply don't believe that it would be saveable given a few more years where it was, let alone through to present day. Just ask Kyle Fleming the great Maserati parts fellow, he personally sent to the crusher probably more masers and ferrari's than anyone. Was 0384 destined to that big crusher in the sky? Then the heirs would have got nothing except a bill from the crusher.

 

Before you run off, I have missed what your piece of this car is other than sharing information?

 

Fair question. I can answer with 100% certainty.
Yes it would still exist.

Had it not been stolen it would have been auctioned with all the other cars and parts at the time of his passing.
His heirs are not gearheads like the rest of us crazy people.
All the things that Karl saved were sold from his estate.
What would the next owner do to the 375 had it not been stolen and had it been in the estate auction? That's open to speculation.

 

This tends to understate the hugeness of the situation.

And with that, you've indicted yourself as having absolutely no business offering opinions on the restoration of competition Ferraris.

George this post could very well be in the Barn find Dino 8450 thread or any other restoration thread on Fchat. How about the thread on the Countach restoration on Reunion Island? Just as germane. You're taking one specific chassis and equating it to another. They all have their similarities and their differences.

But for you, it's just an extension of the 90 pages worth of sniping you did in the 0858 thread where you picked everyone else apart because you disagreed with them.
You have steadfastly maintained that what you want and what your opinion is about 0858 is the only thing that matters, that history is meaningless compared to what George Burgess's opinion is, and also that David Piper is the greatest and only expert on 1960's Ferrari Sports Prototype restoration.

George everyone has to be beaten over the head with your opinions about this because you refuse to exercise any self-restraint. Any credibility you had in the 0858 thread was long since gone by the time the owner of the entire site called you out for trolling. Can you not pose these off-topic questions there, or must you take over every thread with your stubbornness about 0858?

 

True.

Understated but true.

 

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Why have these pictures never been posted.
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Even I called you out in the 858 thread. Your comments there were extremely laughable and trying to now paint a parallel on these stories to bolster any claims you have made about the other car is an embarrassment to you, again.

I think you are the one who needs waking up. Get a rooster or something.

>8^)
ER

 

Here
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142444276-post1620.html

George I have not sent a PM to Rob Lay or any moderator about you.

"Sticks and Stones"
I'm not on this site to hurt anyone's feelings. If you really think so, I would suggest letting someone you trust take a look at the other thread and ask them their honest reaction to your posts.

Not going to contribute any more to this off-topic discussion within the confines of this thread. Always happy to discuss further through PM or private email.
Thanks,
Dave

 

Now gentlemen, can we return to 0384. in reply absolutely I can guarantee that #0384 would still exist, even if scruffier than it was in 1989. No matter, a top restorer can restore anything from any state.......