AAARGH!!! Manual issues... time to step it up a gear! | FerrariChat

AAARGH!!! Manual issues... time to step it up a gear!

Discussion in '360/430' started by witkop69, Sep 3, 2013.

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  1. witkop69

    witkop69 Rookie

    Aug 19, 2013
    17
    I have a 2000 360 with the good old fashioned metal shaft thing to change gears.
    I have always had issues with 1st and 2nd and to resolve the issue I have replaced the clutch, the bush in the lever, cables, gear cartridge and the latest one had the gear box rebuilt.... BUT THE ISSUE PERSISTS!!!!!

    If I drive the car at normal speeds in the UK it works fine, its not smooth like a hot knife through butter but it works. Now I have the car in Germany and make use of the speedlimit free autobahn my huge smile is soon wiped clean off when I take a exit and need to use 2nd or 1st. I can not select it, it feels like something is getting hot and expanding and gets very stiff to select the left side gears and odd in the neutral position. After a short while things seem to cool down and can then select 1st and 2nd

    I have had uk Ferrari in Exeter look into this but they didn't see the issue as they stuck at the speed limit, they rebuilt the gearbox. I toke it to Frankfurt Ferrari and they are useless and the worst customer service in the world for anything but they changed the cables

    Im no expert but my technical brain thinks the cartridge thing where the cables connect to at the gearbox is the issue. It is close to the manifold and I think when booting it down the autobahn it heats up the cartridge and something expands making it tight to change gears

    Something I noticed today, there is no left to right freeplay in the gear lever but there is a fair bit of free movement in the back and forth. Can someone check if they see the same thing

    Any advice is more than welcome, this has cost in the region of 15 000 and still not right
    Someone some where must know what the issue is
     
  2. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Dec 13, 2009
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    Curt
    Just so I understand the problem..

    When the car is in 1st and 2nd gear when the car is just warming up there is no problem at all selecting 1+2?
    -or- 1+2 are always difficult to select but are even worse after the car warms up

    The gear lever moves left and right the entire length of the gear shift gate?
    -or- the gear shift moves easily left and right the gear shift but stops moving left and right once you reach 1+2 gear (below 3+4, 5+6 it moves freely left and right)
    -or- it doesn't move freely left and right at all and is hard to move left and right in general?

    They rebuilt the transmission and the transmission shift forks (box on side of transmission) and put a new clutch and rebuilt the shift lever?

    No problems shifting at all at any time with gears 3,4,5 and 6? (Mostly Rules out Clutch in my eyes)

    On first thought I'd think the transmission shift fork on the side of the transmission needs alignment (there is a tool to do that per the WSM). Second that there is something funky with the tranny. Third, to rule this out I'd disconnect the shifter cables at the tranny and then see if any binding. If no, then suggests shift fork issue/Alignment or tranny..

    I could be wayyyy of on this though..
     
  3. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,954
    The Cold North
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    Tom
    Its funny, I have a customer with the exact same issue. Mind you I havn't thrown any parts at it yet because I'm not sure what the issue is. He is going to be bringing me the car to have it looked at in the late fall. It does need a clutch because it slips a bit under heavy acceleration, but the shifting issue is completely separate from that.
     
  4. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
    794
    Cheshire UK
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    Mike M
    Ahh the 3 pedal. I'm so happy I have an F1 (sorry Curt, couldn't resist ;)).

    If I'd paid that kind of money with no improvement I'd strongly consider taking the car straight back to the workshop.
    I think your potentially close with your diagnosis and the selector mechanism is close to the RH cat.

    You either need to take it back, go to somewhere else , or try to methodically eliminate the potential causes. E.g you should be able to rule out the the stick and control cables just by feeling if it goes tight for all movement or just engaging the gears.

    You are also not alone....

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/technical-q/377792-360-manual-gear-shifting-issue.html
     
  5. 53ford

    53ford Karting

    Nov 13, 2009
    112
    Make sure the upper transmission mount is healthy. I had this problem with the higher gears; it was the cable adjustments and the tranny mount. My tech changed the mount then fine tuned the cables. It's been fine ever since. Good luck.
     
  6. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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  7. witkop69

    witkop69 Rookie

    Aug 19, 2013
    17
    #7 witkop69, Sep 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have a video of the issue on youtube ( IMG 3141 - YouTube )
    1st and 2nd work fine all the time unless I am really able to open the car up on the autobahn for a fair fast paced run. this video was filmed about 5 mintues after coming off the autobahn. It is normally worse than this and will get my girlfriend to recored a better one at some stage but think this gives you the idea.

    Ive also attached 2 pictures showing the forward / backward freeplay in the lever.
    Anyone else got this same movement?
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  8. F430Rod

    F430Rod Formula Junior

    Feb 17, 2007
    482
    Orange County
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    Rod
    Has anybody taken off the gate face plate and see how the car shifts? Is taking off the gate plate as simple as removing the 4 screws that is in the picture?
     
  9. witkop69

    witkop69 Rookie

    Aug 19, 2013
    17
    to remove it completely you need to take the ball off the top first and the 4 screws
    but its a 15sec job
     
  10. Kevin Rev'n

    Kevin Rev'n Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #10 Kevin Rev'n, Sep 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The stick is supposed to be a much more precise thing than your video and attached pictures show. There is a great F-Chat thread about replacing the shifter bushing that can show you what it looks like under there. Also an OK video and another website's thread for reference. I would consider replacing the shifter bushing with the Hill Engineering part that is easy to get and cheap. This would narrow down the areas of concern for your system, if not fix the problem.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/360-430/249934-360-shifter-bushing-repair.html

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxrLnNDiICU]Ferrari 360 Modena Shifter Bushing Replacement - YouTube[/ame]

    Ferrari 360 & F430 Gear Lever Bushing | Aldous Voice

    To me, it seems like yours is not assembled correctly. The shifter and the two cables attached to it go back to your transmission as shown here...
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    tifosi101 likes this.
  11. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

    May 12, 2007
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    Good post, I would be very tempted to go down this route, I take my car to a Ferrari specialist, and they did not pick up on the shift bush problem, they started adjusting things, not a good idea, a hairline crack in cheap plastic bush is all it takes for bad shifting.

    On the other hand seeing it seems a awful lot of cash has been already spent, one would have hoped this would have picked up on.
     
  12. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    I thought he mentioned he already changed the shift bushing... besides wouldn't shift bushing be all the time versus only when hot?

    My impressum, heating cables that are binding when hot thus limiting motion of the shifter.. or in the tranny the 1+2 sunchro/shift arm has got something funky...

    But I just stayed last night at a Holiday Inn...
     
  13. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

    May 12, 2007
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    Yes I know, but could be that they are so crap it has gone near enough straight away with hard shifting, it's into the unknown with these cars getting older.

    The hill bush is a safe bet, saying that I haven't replaced mine with a hill one yet!!

    Oh strange thing is mine was worse when it got hot..:confused:
     
  14. witkop69

    witkop69 Rookie

    Aug 19, 2013
    17
    I replaced the Bush with the Hill one, Old one was cracked so worth while upgrade. The Ferrari dealership in frankfurt didn't even now that this was a issue. Wonder if the value kept is over heating. ..... still a little lost
    Thanks for the posts
     
  15. Chiaroman

    Chiaroman Formula 3
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    Apr 21, 2004
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    New Jersey
    Still a bit confused...(nothing new!!!)

    Did solve the problem?
     
  16. witkop69

    witkop69 Rookie

    Aug 19, 2013
    17
    Confused but consistent, thats my game plan.

    I replaced the Bush before the gearbox was removed and overhauled. After all mentioned I still got issues. ....
     
  17. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

    May 12, 2007
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    The problem I had was that my Ferrari tech guy adjusted the cables, when the real problem was the lever bush, so when the bush was renewed it needed adjusting again, but only slightly, it is a very annoying problem, and still to this day I never feel it is 100% right, however I try not to floor it too much from standing.
     
  18. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
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    Witcop, I think I'd be inclined to replace the gear linkage cables. Also, can I ask what oil you are using?

    I'd suspect one or the other is likely the culprit.
     
  19. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

    May 12, 2007
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    I still reckon it is something to do with that bushing or something not quite right with how it has been put back together, keep us posted though.
     
  20. Kevin Rev'n

    Kevin Rev'n Two Time F1 World Champ
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  21. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    #21 vrsurgeon, Sep 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I agree with the above, Personally this is what I'd do..

    I would first check this out (above). Loose bushing, loose attachement of the cable, etc. Start here.

    Then I'd get the engine nice and warm and drive all spirited like, take it up on the lift, remove the undertray, disconnect the cables at the transmission and check for a binding cable.

    Then.. I'd consider something funky in the tranny.. either misalignment of 6, the selector mechanism.. or something screwy with #3.. the selector fork for gears 1+2, with the dowel (1) not moving well when warm or crap lubrication with heating etc.
    Start simple and then move backwards to the tranny... because I presume.. ASSume the tranny fluid has been changed and the work done in the past was spot on..

    The latter is usually the problem..
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  22. witkop69

    witkop69 Rookie

    Aug 19, 2013
    17
    sorry for late response... this thing called work!!

    Well I got home last night and got the missus to move the shifter so I could see if the issue was in the linkage by the box and hey presto... the cable has free play on the linkage.
    Ferrari Frankfurt replaced the cables a few months back so guess its going back to them to sort out.

    This still won't resolve the 1/2nd shifting getting tight when really hot though...
    something in the above schematics is the issue, well, what my gut says.
     
  23. Ruperto

    Ruperto Rookie

    Mar 28, 2012
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    Ruperto
    This is long shot but did you ever resolve this? Let us know!
     

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