I am anticipating this day but it didn't turn out to be a good fix. today I got this typical transmission warning light blinking and the car won't shift Stopped the car, turn off battery, check with f1 fuse first, its shot. I temporarily put some copper wire on the fuse. then replaced the pump motor( i have it right in the trunk), together with the relay. one thing I messed up is that when I was replacing the pump motor, the 4 screws weren't easy to get off, so i pulled the hoses off resulting in some fluid loss. I put the hose back and refilled with some fluid then I turned on battery. the f1 warning light is still there. and the pump motor had a lot of noise when i opened the door. Is this because I didn't bleed the system? I start the engine, on one occassion i was able to put into #1 gear. but it dropped to N in a few seconds after a few minutes, the pump motor became so hot to the point that i can't really touch it. now, at this point, when i opened the door, the pump motor won't run , is the pump motor shot again? all because I didn't bleed the system?
Sorry to hear it. Taking it to a shop is obvious, so I take it that is not a practical option. If you were you carrying around a spare F-1 pump motor you must have been having issues with it. Perhaps a but more background would be helpful.
As I understand it the F1 system must be bled with an SD2 system or it can be challenging to bleed.. I have not done it.. Only heresay on my part.. If you get bubbles in the F1 system, because it has such high pressure, the bubbles will affect the operation, much like a brake system. Get it back to your home, test the motor for continuity and resistance compare it to the shot motor. Then check the fuse and relay without the motor connected. For bleeding the system without an SD2.. I'll defer to those here.. I'll be following this with interest! Good luck!
there are a lot of dealers in china, and none of them near me served a 360. my local dealer is not very friendly and whenever I talk about anything specific to the 360, they'll show me an attitude like "if you know everthing, why do you want to come here?" anybody has a writeup about how to bleed the f1 system?
well, before, i saw the transmission light blinking when i was shifting, but only for a fraction of a second..... and that i deemed the motor is on its way out.
I think Juri posted a thread on bleeding without an SD2. My techs do it routinely. Takes a lot more time, but cheaper than a $25K SD2 or Leonardo.
I would have to vent myself on this forum about my "ferrari experience" in china. In China, car dealers, whatever brand, do not sell parts, they bind their service and parts together. There's no such a things as "parts department". Need something? you need to look into the aftermarket, or fabricate yourself. Getting my 360 serviced in China even in a nicely staffed ferrari dealer is one step short of not being able to own the car. Let me give you an example, a while a go, I was trying to replace the timing belt. I drove my car to my local dealer and they say they've never serviced a 360 and never replaced a ferrari timing belt (f430 onwards only). But they didn't say they can't do it, they told me "you need to wait for about a month for parts to arrive from Italy". so that forced me into buying from Ricambiamerica.com or Europarts.com and ship the parts I needed to China. so far so good. but when it comes to SD2 specific jobs, such as this bleeding the f1 system, i am screwed. "no you can't provide your own f1 motor, you'll have to wait for shipment from Italy and that'lll take a month". seriously I don't want to do my own labor, I'd like to pay whoever is good at these things to do it. I have a very busy business in china while being an 360 enthusist(you hear it right, 360 only, no 430, no 458, that's why I have 2x 360s). There's absolutely no quality indy shops here in China, at least not in the radius of 200 miles centered in Beijing. Then it comes to my local dealer. The receptionist is nice. actually a very nice and cute girl. the incidence is that my timing belt had a squeaky noise after about 1-2 months of replacing it. SO i called the dealer up and asked if they can bring their Clavis or Diapas device to me for the testing the frequency of the belts. They receptionist kindly agreed and say they'll charge 2 hours of labor. No problem. one way trip from dealer to me would cost the tech guy 40 minutes, plus some testing time, yea, 2 hours are normal. Their rate is about US$120 per hour and its inexpensive by ferrari standard. I stripped the car with the timing belt ready to be tested and waited the tech guy to come and there he came and handed me the Diapaz, saying" here you go, test it". I said:"could you do it for me? You are more experienced than I am " he replied :"you sure know a lot of stuff, just do it yourself" I was like what? you are paid to come and say i have to test it myself? I complained this to the manager and the manager told me the tech guy has an attitude like that from day 1 in this dealership. I remember couple of months ago, I visited the dealer for my key fob order, and saw this tech guy wrenching a 458. To be honest, although I am no mechanic, I can tell that he did everything in an awkward way, very clumsy. I could be wrong but I don't think he has a lot of exeprience and he is the "master technician" there. lots of others can't come off my head as of now. its 2am here 80 miles south of Beijing and I can't sleep. I don't know the new motor I bought from Juri was shot or not, I don't know where to start with. I even have to buy a lot of fuses to ship to china just in case I blow a few in the testing ..... I dont know if my new relay from Juri was shot. I wanted so much I can take the car to some quality shop but hell, there's no such a shop. I dont even know where to buy the f1 pump oil. Shell store here in china simply told me :NO, we don't have it I would call this a nightmare, maybe I shouldn't ford into this ferrari arena, because the place i currently live doesn't have a single one ferrari owner who isn't buying the car for showing purposes. and 99% of the owners are under the age of 30. When I was having a nice suit on and driving my ferrari, people say I am an idiot, meaning: suits and ferrari don't make a good pair.
My understanding is that F1 pump is self bleeding. The actuators bleeding is much more difficult. If there is fluid in the pump, then it will run until the accumulator is at full pressure, then the pump shuts off.
China exotics boom started early 2000. china and Mid East markets lack service expertise. Focus was on the sale, rather than service. Many dealers don't even have service departments at the start, just show rooms in malls and hotels. My bro lives in hk and calls this the Ferrari tax, ie getting ripped off and bend over. Here in the states, the story isn't that dis similar in some areas. We even hv Indy that think they are god. Quite honestly, I don't care for the attitude and I work on my car. Here is a write up on manual bleeding from another member "I forgot to post how i was able to bleed the f1 system with out sd2 Undo bleeder screw the one on the bell housing turn on your key hold your upshift paddle for 5 sec then stop do this 5 times.Then i ran i clear hose from the bottom bell housing bleeder up into the resevoir fill the hose with atf fluid so its full.Then i started the car and opened bottom bleeder,then hold your up shift paddle for 5 sec then stop and wait about 15 sec to bluid up pressure again repeat this 5 times then close your bleeder screw. That should do it." http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/348-355/402272-bleeding-355f1-system-3.html The thread has reference to a post on team speed too. Another one from Juri http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/140290321-post19.html Good luck!
Fuse shot could be: 1. Fluke, new fuse all is fine (rarely the case) 2. Pump went bad, as they all will, slowly increasing the resistance until one day the pump current exceeds fuse amperage and fuse blows as it should (most likely) 3. Pump failed as in (2.) BUT it failed not because of old age, but because of another issue; .a. Leak causing pump to run all the time (all fluid would be lost and seen on ground, floor pan, low level, etc) .b. Faulty sensor on system pressure, causing pump to run at 100% duty even though it did not need to, causing premature pump failure due to thermal deterioration. Never do this! Steal a fuse of the SAME amperage from an accessory (if one exists) or just get a new fuse. I understand that if you are broken down in any gear except "N" there is a towing issue and then maybe its worth the risk. Fine, do your best to prevent the loss of fluid and try to prevent introducing air in the system. Possibilities: 1. You did not correctly mate the pump with the pump head correctly. thus its not pumping. No pumping and the pressure will not build, running the pump into thermal failure. Prognosis: Need a new pump and correct mating. 2. The air in the system is causing the pump not to reach switch off pressure for the system, causing the pump to reach thermal failure. Prognosis:Need a new pump and bleeding. 3. A possible high pressure switch in the F1 system or its wiring, TCU is faulty and causing the TCU to think the system has not reached switch off pressure, causing the pump to reach thermal failure. Prognosis:Need a new pump and sensor/wiring/TCU. Some pressure, but not enough. Possibilities: 1. Air in system is the most likely culprit. If it were a bad high pressure sensor, it would shift fine for a few min, until the pump could fail from thermal issues. Final Prognosis: Your first pump dies of old age. Slowly increasing resistance, fuse blew. Your new pump was installed correctly, but with air in the system, [its like pressing the brakes with air in the brake system, the car wont really stop well becaus there is no pressure]. The new pump likely ran at 100% duty and tried to build pressure, allowing for a few gear changes if you are lucky, but then died from thermal failure. Your fuse should have blown again assuming you did not have a wire shorting it out. I recommend getting a new pump. And following Juris bleeding suggestions. Had you swapped the pump using the three screws as noted in his DIY, you would not have had this failure. If you had bled the system with an SD2 or the Juri "DIY" way, you would not have destroyed the new pump. Sorry if this came across harsh, not my intent. Just my opinion based on the facts disclosed. Not judging you or your technical skill.
Re Pump suppliers.. You can try these guys... F1 Pump Ferrari Maserati Part 213264 E Gear Lamborghini Part 086901137 | eBay F1 Pump Electric Motor Part 213264 M Maserati GT Coupe Spider 2002 Grand Sport | eBay Go with the maserati pump IMHO or equivalent. Should be cheaper but same part as the 360.. You've seen the actual pump and replaced it whereas I haven't.. Not sure if the 430 pump is higher output or a better upgrade.. I can't for the life of me imagine why the stupid pump shouldn't be more than 100-200 bucks USD IMHO..
I just recently went thru this process. I did not want the car towed to the dealer so I tried to power the F1 pump with an external power source. This built pump pressure but would not allow bleeding as the solenoids that control the clutch and gears require power to activate. I then connected everything and started the car after running 2 lengths of clear tube from the bleeder nipples to the f1 fluid tank. One up top on the back of the quick disconnect clutch fitting ( near F1 pump system) and another length to the bleed block on the trans lower right side. With the motor running and car in neutral, I would crack the bleeder and watch the fluid make its way thru the clear tubes until it ran solid. At first, air bubbles were mixed with the trans fluid. After 3 series of bleeds it was all trans fluid and no bubbles or air. I started at the top, and finished at the trans bleeder. 1/4( 6mm approx.) inch ID clear plastic tube worked well. You will hear the F1 pump cycle on shortly after opening the bleeder fitting. This took me about 20 minutes to finish and it shifted perfectly afterwards. I am sure this is not the "approved" method, but my choice was to try this, or tow it to the dealer to hook it to an SD tool. I hope this is some help. Rich
Another possibility, and worth trading, is the F1 pump relay, which is frequently a cause of pump failure. Several threads on that and there is a much cheaper BMW relay which an improved V23134-B57-X152 relay. Any good synthetic automatic transmission fluid meeting Dexron III or Dexron VI standards will work in the F1 system. Synthetic power steering fluid is the same thing, although I use Valvoline Dexron VI ATF in my power steering.
Appreciate so much for the detailed diagnosis 1. fluke is not possible, since I got the new fuse in and it flashes when I crank the engine 2. could be the case, but I am now suspecting the pump head as it doesn't turn freely. 3. maybe the pump head a. if the pump was always running, I could've heard it. so i don't think that's the issue. b. maybe, but do you think it is likely? now I just got a new fuse of 30a in the tool kit. it was broken when im at 2nd gear, but it automatically went to Neutral after I stopped the car. Possibilities: 1. You did not correctly mate the pump with the pump head correctly. thus its not pumping. No pumping and the pressure will not build, running the pump into thermal failure. Prognosis: Need a new pump and correct mating. I opened the new pump, and it was indeed a thermal failure. I'll get a pump&head assembly this time from Juri. 2. The air in the system is causing the pump not to reach switch off pressure for the system, causing the pump to reach thermal failure. Prognosis:Need a new pump and bleeding. Will install new pump&head and watch out for the temperature before bleeding 3. A possible high pressure switch in the F1 system or its wiring, TCU is faulty and causing the TCU to think the system has not reached switch off pressure, causing the pump to reach thermal failure. Prognosis:Need a new pump and sensor/wiring/TCU.Some pressure, but not enough. Again, will watch out for temperature before suspecting this Possibilities: 1. Air in system is the most likely culprit. If it were a bad high pressure sensor, it would shift fine for a few min, until the pump could fail from thermal issues. Final Prognosis: Your first pump dies of old age. Slowly increasing resistance, fuse blew. Your new pump was installed correctly, but with air in the system, [its like pressing the brakes with air in the brake system, the car wont really stop well becaus there is no pressure]. The new pump likely ran at 100% duty and tried to build pressure, allowing for a few gear changes if you are lucky, but then died from thermal failure. Your fuse should have blown again assuming you did not have a wire shorting it out. I recommend getting a new pump. And following Juris bleeding suggestions. Had you swapped the pump using the three screws as noted in his DIY, you would not have had this failure. If you had bled the system with an SD2 or the Juri "DIY" way, you would not have destroyed the new pump. Sorry if this came across harsh, not my intent. Just my opinion based on the facts disclosed. Not judging you or your technical skill.[/QUOTE]
update update. I didn't shut my eyes until 5:30am and woke up at 9am. I put off all of my schedules and took off the whole pump & pump head together. I opened the new pump i tried yesterday. not to my surprise, it was toasted. the strange thing is, the pump head's rotating part isn't rotating freely.... i am guessing that's where the "noise" coming from. It should be rotating freely, shouldn't it? Luckily, i got some new fuses from a local shop, not exactly identical but its 30A. I called Juri and Juri told me as long as I didn't touch the EV lines, I am fine with the fluid bubbles if I be careful as they are minimal and shouldn't give strange sounds and it should shift ok(although its a temporary fix just for testing purposes). Now I am waiting for the new pump + pump head + relay and see what's the result after installing those. and , that, will takes 7 days, not 1 month. ........ any thoughts, my dear ferarri fellows?
there's a "Shell UB brake/transmission fluid" that my local dealer used to flush the f1 system. I am thinking it is something wrong. what do you think ? it doesn't mention dexron III or VI in there
Yes the pump head should spin freely. It sounds like you have a good handle on the technical side and are mechanically inclined even if by necessity. I am sure you will get this solved. Keep us posted, I am rooting for you to get your back on the road ASAP!
update update. the pump head failure(not spinning freely) is probably due to I topped up the system with the wrong fluid ( shell Donax ub brake/transmission fluid, exceeding dot3 &dot4). as Juri told me, it will damage rubbers & gaskets. Now I have to replace the pump head and motor anyways, question is: what other rubber or gaskets are there in the whole F1 system could go bad? This is going to be a major major issue now.... what a world....
You need to get that fluid out of there and replace with synthetic automatic transmission fluid. Here are the specs for the recommended fluid, which meets Dexron III standards, not DOT III/IV, which refers to brake fluid that is highly corrosive. You should be able to go to the nearest Buick dealer and buy synthetic automatic transmission fluid. All the automatic transmissions in those cars use synthetic ATF meeting Dexron III or VI standards. You will have to flush out all the brake fluid you put in there. Image Unavailable, Please Login
I can't describe how I hate my dealer the fluid was provided by the DEALER!!!! they are arranging a tow truck to get the fluid flushed out now.
Oh dear. If you are very lucky and they manage to get ALL the fluid out maybe no damage will have been done. Last time i saw someone top up with brake fluid it trashed the Actuator seals, but he managed to drive it a bit before it failed. The pump is self bleeding, but it is way beyond that now. The system needs removing and properly flushing, including all the lines and components, then it needs a full actuator drain and valve block drain using an SD2. Fluid type is very specific on these cars, the clutch slave has different seals for manual and F1 cars because of different fluid types.
UPDATE UPDATE, local dealer kinda accept responsibility and towed the car away, I argued the incident the "chinese way" and it seemed to be effective. The manager first cited the F1 fluid should be the "shell ub", and showed me the shop manual. I pointed out : "look, this is for 'f1 brake fluid", not for the f1 actuation system" The manager said he'll fix the car, without telling me who's going to pay. But I assume the dealer will pickup the tag. Now, my headache is, if the fluid didn't damage anything else, it corrodes it, and the car can still be driven, but with a shortened F1 life. quite dramatically, now I hope the whole F1 system is broken so that the dealer has to replace everything for me!!! what a dear world, dealer gave me the wrong fluid , its such a stupid mistake.
