David Piper restores the Talacrest P4 | Page 81 | FerrariChat

David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Streetrod, Sep 6, 2012.

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  1. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula 3

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    I don't know how it's done in this very high end, one-of-a-kind sports prototype segment of the old car hobby, but I know if someone showed up for judging at your garden variety American musclecar show with a detail as far off as this, there'd be 50 guys who would laugh him off the showfield.
     
  2. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    True.

    The statement that this is being done by the world's leading P4 experts is truly laughable
     
  3. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    I think the idea of Piper being an 'expert' one would turn to with a major restoration in mind has well and truly been dismissed by now. Those images speak for themselves.

    This is now added to the growing list of P Cars that have been Piperised and have problems/blatant inaccuracies as a result.
     
  4. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    There's no denying Piper's success with the cars back in the day but that had much to do with adapting and modifying them. How this speaks to his expertise in originality is unclear.
     
  5. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    My only hope is that it comes apart quicker then they put it together.

    I hope the market speaks and someone that cares more about actual history versus building a show piece takes the reigns.

    There's alot wrong with this car. To even try to argue that it was built correctly is off the table at this point. As is Piper being the world expert on Ferrari P4's. He may be a Piper P4 expert but folks don't want a Piper, they want a Ferrari.

    I respect Pipers involvment in P4's in the past but when it comes to restoring cars correctly it's like expecting a Doctor to be able to build you a hospital.
     
  6. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    I am just curious who made this comment. David Piper is ONE of the worlds leading P4 experts and one to be consulted in the preparation of a P4 particularly for track competition use. Pierre Bardinin is no longer with us and his family seem to be selling off much of his collection so this avenue seems closed.Lawrence Stroll owner of 0858 which is considered to be pretty close to original and who is very actively involved with the car certainly is well worth consulting. I am not familiar with the current owners of 0850 and 0844 but they deserve consideration. One thing for sure each should have the equivalent of Jim G's Sal turning wrenches. Of course all this could lead right back to D P and Talacrest.There is no question that the best authority on specific details and original specifications of two of these machines is Mr G and Sal. There is no question that from the point of longevity and personal experience D.P. is still the original master of the P4 going back to the early 1960s and starting with his deal with Mr. Ferrari. For those truly interested in the provenance of these few machines both J G and D P need to be the protagonists of the play. The true story cannot be told or understood without both. tongascrew
     
  7. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #2007 miurasv, Sep 21, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The world's leading living P4 expert would surely be Mauro Forghieri, though now retired, and I have not read that he was ever involved with restorations? Franco Rocchi died in 1996.

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  8. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    I would feel a great deal more confident in a restoration done with JG's assistance than DP's.

    Their work in restoring P cars speak for themselves. Its not even close.
     
  9. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    I agree completely. As I have said JG's approach to historically correct restorations is without equal whether it is 002C or a P4. However it's another thing for David Piper to have spent decades successfully driving P4s as well as a dozen or more other all out competition cars in championship racing events, most of these he also owned and prepared. If you look at the great independents from Prince Bira to Briggs Cunningham to Bruce McClaren and others David Piper can stand with any of them. These cars were built for one purpose to be raced this has been his dedicated purpose for those in his charge. When one has the thrill of today seeing any one of these at full chat on a race track D P has had a hand in the experience. And the best part of the 0858 resto is that it will be prepared to be seen and enjoyed sitting still or as originally intended seen and heard blasting around a race track.Really now isn't this what it is all about. tongascrew
     
  10. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mr. Stroll is not the owner of 0858.
    Mr. Stroll is the owner of 0856.

    Marcel Massini
     
  11. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    I wouldn't be concerned with the facts. Tonga's posts are rarely accurate..
     
  12. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    As long as you know little or nothing about P cars and don't care for high quality, well researched and accurate restoration you can certainly enjoy both the visual experience both in motion and static, just as one could with a Norwood.

    I'm guessing someone willing to part with $25m does care for those things, just like many attendees of shows/concours etc that are passionate about historical Ferrari's do.

    Again, in his prime DP's ability to race and prepare P cars is without question, his ability to do a restoration that commands $$$ very much is.

    To loosely quote another poster in this thread 'the best P cars of this era are ones DP hasn't had his hands on'.
     
  13. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #2013 miurasv, Sep 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Who made the header tank for your car (pics 3 -5 )? It is not the same shape as that of 0846 at Daytona, 1967 (pics 1-2).

    0858 is not yet finished so the A and C markings on the header tank may still be added. You haven't always had those on your car (pic 3).
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  14. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

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    While that is apparently true, these tanks were made up as onesy-twosey kinds of things, not everything is going to be exactly the same, they weren't mass produced. Remember too that 0846 was modified from a P3 and was the prototype for the series. It's entirely possible that some parts were changed when they then made the remaining P4's as a batch and they may have refined the design a bit, or, just as likely, a different person made the tanks and he may have made them a bit differently than the first ones.

    I wouldn't expect everything to be the same on all of these cars. They were, after all, essentially one-off's and if you look carefully there are for sure going to be slight differences between the cars. That's the nature of the beast, and I wouldn't get too excited about. Also remember that 0846 was built up from existing pieces by Piper, so while the tank in there is most likely from the period, it may have been a spare or could well have been the first one they made and they are likely all a bit different, depending on the person that made them or what time of the week it was when they got made.

    Unfortunately the one that Talacrest has made is different still. It is obviously deeper and doesn't have a rounded back end (although when you pressurize it the first time that may fix itself). My guess is that the original tanks got their shape after they pressure tested them, but this one is a bit deeper (which will allow a bit more capacity, which isn't a bad thing) and isn't quiet the same.
     
  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #2015 Napolis, Sep 23, 2013
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    You also can't compare analog photos taken with wide angle glass that distorts and suffers from spiracle aberration with digital photos that suffer from different kind of distortion.

    The point remains that the surfaces are flat where they should be rounded, the entire tank is wrong as it's not only an expansion tank but is also a spare extra water tank used to add water skirting the Le Mans rules which forbid adding water until the car has gone 400 miles.

    The valve that allowed this and it's very elegant handle and it's "Open" "Aprire" "A"/ "Closed" "C" "Chiuso" markings are what matter. This valve is also used to properly bleed the system.

    Hey for $25MM USD I guess proper mechanically operating header/expansion/storage tanks aren't something you get.

    Oh Well.
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  16. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    Of course.Typo. With advanced age comes........and typos. Thanks tongascrew
     
  17. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #2017 miurasv, Sep 23, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2013
    You can't blame the analog camera and wide angle glass for the 1967 0846 Daytona pictures with the header tank clearly in view showing the one on your car to be the wrong shape. You didn't actually answer who actually made your header tank. Why was that?

    Were the cylinder head camshaft covers on 0846 P3/4 ever painted red as on your car. Were the coils ever gold? Was the tipo 603 gearbox ever grey/silver?
     
  18. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    #1 I have over 1200 pages in books,and in other research documents and pictures on the P cars. I do have quite a bit of info on these cars.
    #2 'I'm guessing...." You got this one absolutely correct!
    #3 "In his prime,,,,," which he is still, for his age. well in.DP is not doing the restoration Talacrest is.
    #4 There may be a couple of P cars DP hasn't been involved with in some way.The group as a whole seems to be doing just fine. tongascrew
     
  19. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #2019 Napolis, Sep 23, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The P4 "A" "C" valve would fit a P3 header tank as P3's also were FI but when the F1 was removed on the customer 412P's and replaced with Carbs a different bleeding system was used and the 350 Can Am's didn't use P4 Header tanks either. As 0858's engine isn't a 330 P4 engine but is a 350 Can Am engine with replica bits and bobs I guess not having the proper P4 "A" "C" valve is the least of the issues compared to 350 vs 330.
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  20. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    Cosmetic choices matter a lot less than structural changes and inaccuracies, such as a 350 Can Am engine that didn't use those kinds of tanks being put into a car and being advertised as a 330, for instance.

    Still, I quoted the post so Jim may answer for himself.
     
  21. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    The Gear box that was in 0846 was it's 593 P3 gearbox muled by Ferrari in late 66 to fit a P4 engine and wheelbase as per Ferrari's 0846's Technical Data Sheets. It is/was silver. The gear box now in 0846 is a 603 P4 gearbox we built from the P car factory spares we bought a few years ago and it's gold. None of that is new news. It was clearly posted years ago.

    The fact remains that many of the replicated P4 bits recently fitted to 0858 aren't correct (windshield/header tank/etc.) and 0858's engine remains 350 not "330" as it's clearly falsely advertised. If someone want to pay $25MM USD for what other's have called this Piperised 350 Can Am "FrankenFerrari" "Abortion" more power to them.
     
  22. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #2022 miurasv, Sep 23, 2013
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    Yes, P3s were Fuel Injection but centrally positioned in the engine between the camshafts in the same position as the carbs are on a 412P. Didn't the P3 use the same header/expansion tank as a 412P? It looks like it to me. B/W P3 pic on the left and 412P on the right.

    How does the 350 Can Am engine recirculate its expanded water then? Doesn't it just have a repositioned header/expansion tank?
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  23. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    So basically the P3/4 type car in your ownership, as pictured on the previous page, had an incorrect P3 tipo 593 gearbox in it, as well as the other inaccuracies. People in glass houses.......
     
  24. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    Incorrect? Did you not read the part where it says "as per 0846's technical data sheets"?

    In fact, the car is a P3/4, meaning it began it's life as a P3, and furthermore was used in the development of the later P4 cars, meaning the 593 gearbox is not only correct but historically significant. Also, the car currently has a 603 gear box fitted to it. Period built and correct. And quite impressive, as I had the good fortune to see it being worked on by Sal in person.

    Not to mention that the discussion here is about transparency, first and foremost. 0846's history, particularly through its restoration, is perhaps the most transparent of all P cars.

    It is not advertised as being something which it is not.
     
  25. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    I know exactly what a Ferrari 330 P3 is, what a P3/4 is, that 0846 started life as a P3 and was converted into the sole P3/4, blah blah blah. What is not correct for the specification of the P3/4 is a tipo 593 gearbox, which was only ever used in it when a P3. 0846 P3/4 should have a tipo 603, or a 603R gearbox, depending on who you believe.
     

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