David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

I'm interested in Jim's comment to this statement, which is why I quote.

In your line of reasoning, though, do you know what a 330 P4 is? Is 0858 a 330 P4?

 

Everybody knows the car has a 350 engine in it. Sorry, but you're trying to make something of Talacrest deceiving people by calling it a 330 P4 is ridiculous. I've said before that they couldn't be more transparent about what is being done to the car.

 

Somehow I think they could:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-redline-restorations/69585-one-only-0846-debate-thread.html

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-redline-restorations/111267-0854-back-original-coupe.html

 

Exacto. 0846's 593 P3/P4 gearbox is very historically significant. It was in 0846 when Ferrari first fit a P4 engine into 0846 and changed it's wheelbase from P3 to P4. It was the mule gearbox for the 603.


"Not to mention that the discussion here is about transparency, first and foremost. 0846's history, particularly through its restoration, is perhaps the most transparent of all P cars."

True

"It is not advertised as being something which it is not."

True. True.

Talacrest has very clearly and falsely refered to this car as a "330 P4" when it's not a "330". Their web listing speaks for it's self. It is not true.

http://www.talacrest.com/stockdetails.asp?StockID=4436

 

to the best of my knowledge:
0844: Carbs so it appears no room for aux. tank in 1966/67 LeMans car. Not installed in Can Am car or in resto by Symbolic
0846riginall P3 1966. converted 1967 to P 3/4. Fuel injected.Aux tank in car at Turin show.Fairly shallow, filler cap top center.no scoop.Car rebuilt by J G with correct shaped tank with scoop and yellow cap and yellow overflow hose.
0854:tank to the left of carbs, horizontal across, filler cap on small forward extended manifold.
0856: oval tank,flat top,filler cap in depressed scoop, originally no A & C, added later in 2000 [?] resto
0858:new tank by Talacrest, oval V shape,flat top,larger than 0856 with port for overflow hose. no A&C [yet];original tank removed when converted to CanAm.
Comments please. tongascrew

 

As you and Jim are getting funny about Talacrest referring to 0858 as a 330 P4 just read the first few posts in the 0846 thread and you will see that Jim himself refers to 0846 as a P4. So it's ok for Jim to call a car what he likes but nobody else. Double standards.

 

Did he know it was a P3/4 before the extensive work was done to the car, including all research?

Did he call it a P4 on purpose to justify inflated sale value?

The naming isn't the only thing I'm "getting funny" (also known as disagreeing with you) about. The entire process of destroying a factory original and significant car to satisfy a market need that is inexistent is the main thing I'm "getting funny" about. And also the fact it's seemingly not even being done to a $25M standard.

 

They could be more transparent by calling it what it actually is, a 350 Canam. And it has been a 350 Canam for over 65 years. Practically all her life actually. I can understand why one would have an interest in start calling it a P4 some time in 2012 but if it is not deceitful they are at least not telling the complete story. So yes, they could be more transparent.

 

No, and he still doesn't know. There is a chance it may be P3/4, but I'm afraid the facts are that there is no irrefutable evidence that proves beyond any doubt it is actually 0846 and therefore a P3/4.

I'm sure he did not but I do not believe that Talacrest is calling it a 330 P4 to inflate its price either.

 

Calling a 350 Engine a 330 Engine is not true.

Advertising a car for sale as a 330 when it is a 350 is false advertising.

 

MiuraSV/Tongascrew?

Just curious....?

Do you think that Piper/Talacrest is completing 0858 to the same standards that Napolis has in the restoration of his cars?

Do you think that they are using the correct components/ methods to properly build this car as it was in 67 when it was still a P4?

Do you agree that 0858 has many short-cuts versus proper methods that should not be used on a car with a $25 mil price tag only to have to be sorted out by the next owner if he wants the car to be re-created in what would be considered original methods/design of the time?

Whose P cars do you think are built more historically correct Napolis's or 0858?

If you had a choice to bring your P4 to someone to get it restored correctly as Ferrari ran the car in period would you want Napolis or Talacrest to do the restoration?

Not that Napolis is in the restoration biz but if someone was gonna get the car done right who would you give your money to if you wanted the best possible results?

 

If you have plenty of resource information at hand then you are even better informed at just how inaccurate this restoration is so far. This car remains unsold. 'I'm guessing' passionate collectors and attendees to shows/concours value the qualities this car lacks. It may be why it remains unsold and it may be why those attending shows this thing is brought to may not like what they see...just guessing.

At 82 years old DP's prime has departed quite some time ago as has whatever racing career he had. Both Talacrest and DP are to blame for what has happened to this Can AM.

 

FWIW-these must be viewed under the prism of factory works cars, in an era succeding the "sports car" era of tape on the headlights, and drive to Paris after the race...

P cars: by my count-and I care for 3 such prototypes-something on the order of 65% of P cars have had the frame replaced due to crashes("shunts"), fires(REALLY common in the early to mid/late 1960s)-especially the tube frame chassis cars, as heat and crashes required a "frame table-easier to just change it out with a new one!

As to bodies...jeez...of the eraly versions, I doubt that the clams-as they are referred to-were not the same by the second or third event...no bigger a deal to change out than a tyre-2 pins-easier to change than the DOORS! Also, as the infancy of aerodynamics evolved, noses were being cut off and grafted on at an incredible rate...look at all of the "Drogo" long nose, errr...re-nosed LMs that got this treatment, then renosed as the cars were "restored" to what people thought they should look like...

I'd say its safe to say that the originality issue of bodies is even more/at a higher percentage of non-originality than even the chassis replacement....

These were RACING cars, out to win...
all thiss stuff is a viewpoint which almost doesn't apply to this class of cars...
look at how 512S/M cars
ALL which "appear" to be so "dodgy"...take a close look at 917s, T-33 Alfas, 908s...
the FACTORIES and THEIR records show that the view held by the factories differs vastly from the view of the enthusiasts arguing about this stuff decades after these cars were mothballed by the relentless advancement of annual technological advamcements....

Usually, when you see a works car with an originak chassis and body-it don't have nothin' for race history-let alone WORKS history...those cars were flogged to death....

I think Jim did a great Job on his stuff, but, I do think that there is a lot of "license" being taken by the "other P4 car"-based on a life long historical participation with the marque, in the name of, what appears to be, financial motives-...IMO!
That said, ALL of us who know what these cars really are, see a partially fibreglass bodied works car-rebodied in all aluminum(thats what it LOOKS like on the internet)-for what it really is...no?

NO P3 cars suvive, 2, 412P cars survive, the P4 issue is a debate-which it seems- won't ever be settled?
....in terms of "the gallery" being in agreement?

 

When you turn 82 look back at your career in motor racing and see how it compares with David Piper. Maybe don't wait and do it now and tell us about "what ever racing career" you may have had. tongascrew

 

IMO much of this is so true. Thanks tongascrew

 

+1

 

Good question.From what has been said before, the rear mounted "expansion" tank was installed mainly to allow coolant to be added at LeMans when not allowed by the rules.In converting P cars to CanAm one of the main objectives was to save as much weight as possible so the "expansion" tank was removed as not required for normal operation of the engine. tongascrew

 

This tank looks similar to the "expansion" tank on 0854. See post 2030. tongascrew

 

Yes, the picture is of 412P 0854. Looking at the pictures again the P3 expansion?/header? tank is different to a 412P. Found another P3 pic earlier which shows the shape of the tank more clearly. Will post it shortly.

 

question#1 close but no cigar
#2 Not completely but a commendable effort
#3 Napolis
#4 First to Napolis, then to Piper/Talacrest to prepare for "Historics" competition.
#5 Same answer as #4
The P cars were entirely designed and built for the top level of international championship motor racing. Any restoration should include the necessary modifications to qualify for today's international championship "Historics".
The above would guarantee my satisfaction as well guarantee it's superior position in the market place. Oh if I only had the chance. MegaMillions here I come. tongascrew

 

Please excuse the quality of the pics taken with a phone camera. Pics are of the same picture of a 330 P3 from Ferrari P 1961 - 1973 by Piero Casucci.
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If I had paid $20M+ for David Piper's converted 350 Can Am I absolutely would not have enough trust in his methods or his ethics to subject that car to 9/10ths or 10/10ths on a race track. I am sure the pucker factor is high enough to redline one of these cars in the higher gears, without having the additional very justified anxiety that the engine -- or some chassis component -- could let go at any moment. It just does not sound like my idea of a good time.

 

Thanks much.I don't have a scanner or I would have posted pix. tongascrew

 

Well said.When you get your $20M+ you can buy several well restored street Ferraries.Please do some rallying so they get exercised. Better yet take them to Italy,one at a time, and go thru the Ferrari driving program Then take them out on the Italian roads where there is plenty of room to open her up and play a little 1950s Mille Miglia/Targa Florio. Driving a Ferrari in Italy is the top rung on the ladder.I have done it several times.I'm not exaggerating. tongascrew