David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

I don't regard myself, nor am I regarded as a racer. If I did you would have a point.

82 or not, we are hardly talking about the upper level of driver in Piper regardless, but I can respect it for what it was.

 

Thanks for your thoughts on these. Still wondering what Miurasv thinks?

 

I agree with Napolis and others that 0858 would have been better left in 350 Can Am form. That's the way the factory last prepared and raced it and leaving it as such would have preserved whatever originality was left. I think that rule ought to apply to any historically significant "big bore" racing car.

Anyone else a Lola T70 fan? If you know anything about the early days of Can Am, which was a hugely important series in the late 60's, you know the crucial role played by the early Lola T70 mk 1 and mk 2 spyders in that series. Napolis is right that 0858 should have been left as a 350 Can Am. By the same token, SL 71/32 (which was actually successful in Can Am with Mark Donahue at the wheel - talk about historically significant!) should have been left as a mk2 spyder.

 

SL71-32 is a bit different. Eric designed and sold Lola's as rolling Tubs that could be fitted and raced either as Can Am Spyders or Group 5 Coupes. When Mark and Roger sold her John Meyer converted her to MKIII and continued to race her winning several championships and setting the MT. Equinox all time Hillclimb record. John sold her to Andy Warhol who road converted her to use in one of his movies. I couped her 41 years ago with help and parts from Lola and consultation from Mark and Carl Hass. Mark and Rodger had led the way with the "Hot Rod" Air conditioned road conversion of their Daytona? Sebring? Winner. All of this was done in the day and was bolt on and all parts could be reverted. The Tub was reskinned as panels were no longer safe but the structure remains the same. The Body is clip on clip off. All of this was done "in the day" by several owners. That said I understand your point about Sl71-32.

0858 wasn't done in the day. The Factory wasn't involved. The factory doesn't recognise 0858 as a P4. The quality of the work speaks for itself. The body was made by period incorrect techniques, the "P4" windshield that was made is shaped wrong. The engine remains 350 despite being falsely advertised by John as "330". The "P4" engine header tank is the wrong shape and is missing the P4 valve, etc., etc.

There are two issues with 0858. Should it have been done and has it been done correctly to a high standard. I don't think it should have been done 45 years after the day and personally I think the quality of the work is very poor.

 

I get that SL71/32 was converted a long time ago, when it was just a "worn out old race car," but today it has significance as a special T70 with a solid race history by a legendary team owner and driver, when it was a Mk2 spyder. The difference with Penske/Donahue's Daytona winner is that it started life as a real MkIIIb coupe. They converted it after recovering it from a theft which ruined their '69 season. None of the Mk 2's were ever built by Lola as coupes. They were intended to be run strictly as Group 7/9 sportscars in spyder form.

IMHO that should be your next vintage project when you are done with 0854. It would actually round out your collection to return SL71/32 to spyder form. You'd have two "matched sets" - a italian spyder/coupe duo and, with your MkIV, an Anglo-American spyder/coupe duo. I know for a fact that SL71/32 would be a far more thrilling ride in spyder form!

I agree with you on some of the obvious problems with the 0858 conversion/historical revision. Just that pick showing the windshield contour is enough to tell even the mildly informed of the corners being cut....

 

Please refer to posts 2016 and 2030. Thanks tongascrew

 

I do respect your passion. But I feel like you are turning a blind eye to the actual facts that this car is not being done correctly and giving it a pass due to it is being done by Piper.

 

Apparently you have no idea about the details of David Piper's fourty plus year racing career as an independent. I am not going to do your homework for you but when you do you will appreciate what it really was. Then get back to me. tongascrew

 

When I was a bit younger I did drive SL71-32 on the road as a Can Am Spyder. I will say John's climb up Mt. Equinox in it was really something as were Mark's Victories.

 

Be kind enough to look at post 2052. I am not giving "a pass" or "turning a blind eye to" to the actual facts. It's difficult to have a meaningful discussion without at least two points of view. tongascrew

 

Whether he raced independently or for a factory team for 40 years or 4 minutes doesn't excuse what has happened to this car, the quality (or lack of) of the work or the lack of historical accuracy.

40 years as an independent racer hasn't spared the world yet another questionable P car that he's worked on. Another poster has already taken the courtesy to inform you of the other chassis.

I respect his racing career for what it was.

 

I tend to agree with you about the windshield. If I was going to offer a price for the car I would try to make it on condition that the windshield be corrected. Remember I can be done anytime at the buyer's discretion. tongascrew

 

I think the problem lies that you should have to point out that the correction needs to be made.

If Piper is the P4 expert that some claim he is, the customer should not have to nit pick a asking price $25 mil car that an expert built and tell the "expert" what he needs to correct. For that money, the car should be perfect and the expert, if actually qualified, should have already made it that way.

If the thing you spend most of your time looking through is incorrect, imagine how much of what you don't see is incorrect also. Such as the bodywork under the paint and the motor under that and a million other details that were done on the quick and cheap.

I'd have to say what has been done here is now obviously way below the mark of what it should be. When we all started watching this the main argument was P4 vs Can Am. At that point I think we had the hopes that the P4 version would at least be done right and you told the naysayers lets see what Piper comes up with. Well that time has passed an it is quite obvious he missed the mark.

But in the end what is truly sad and the point of this whole thread, is there was a 100% original car sacrificed so we could end up with a cut and paste job of a car that doesn't represent the long gone P4. The truth of it is that the only part of this car that represent the P4 of 1967 are the parts of it that he hasn't touched.

 

Anyone care to post a "correct" P4 vs 0858 Piper-made windscreen comparison? I honestly dont see an obvious eff up in the Talacrest pics there but maybe someone can enlighten me?

 

I agree on the two sides of the discussion. The original post was made before 2052.

It is more or less in reference to you idolizing Piper's ability to transform 0858 when the actual facts of this restoration clearly show he is not qualified to do it correctly.

I do respect your knowledge and passion for the subject though.

I also respect Piper for what he has contributed and accomplished with racing and cars over the years. But I do not believe he is qualified to recreate a Ferrari P4 correctly. I wonder if you would argue with this?

 

Aside from the historical accuracy issues, as someone who values these cars as driving machines, reverting from a Can Am car to a prototype is a step in the wrong direction. If you are buying it as "pretty" museum piece, I get the attraction to the P4 body. If you're going to be a little crazy and drive it on the road like Napolis, having a prettier car with a windshield and headlights makes sense, I suppose. But this is a high strung vintage race car that is really in its element on a track. On a track a Can Am car is going to be a bit more fun than a prototype - lighter, more focused, more aggressive. And while the P4 body is definitely more "exotic" and voluptuous, the 350 Can Am has a purposeful elegance of its own (although to my eyes a '66/67 T70 Mk2 is better looking!).

 

One thing I find funny is how many say the Can Am was an ugly duckling.

I find it just the opposite. I think it is a completely bad ass piece of sculpture.

Sure I love P4's but to say the Can Am is ugly is ludicrous. I'd be stoked to have that in my line up.

 

agree 100%; I never understood the bashing of 0858's final shape as it left Ferrari.
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Yep. Looks to me like the car Speed Racer wishes he owned.

But many times in this thread people say that it is ugly? I just don't get that.

The P4 is a beautiful car but to say the Can Am isn't in that league of aesthetics is insane.

The car is plain and simply beauty meets bad ass.

 

It wasn't me who said it was ugly. I think the Can Am looked great. Its problem is that the P4 is to many the most beautiful car ever made and to most people the Can Am is not in the same league beauty wise. You don't see replicas being made of a Can Am like you do of the P4, if any at all. Jim Glickenhaus didn't spend millions of dollars commissioning Pininfarina to rebody an Enzo in homage to it or make his Scuderia based racing car(s) with a shape inspired by the Can Am. Their inspiration was the P4.

 

Gotta admit..it looks stunning in that picture, but lighting, camera angle, exposure settings could even make honey boo boos mom look hot.

Just think of the amount of time it took to make it look that good. It didn't sell for a reason. If it looked like that in real life, there would have been a bidding war for it.But is it too bad a big player didn't buy it.

 

That is a flattering photo. In real life, compared to a P4, the nose looks a little high and awkward, and the tail is noticeably truncated. But it looks very potent and tuned to its purpose. Hardly ugly but sit it next to a 412P or P4 and it does look a little off.

I think it has to be better to drive in that form though.

 

A barchetta with little or no windshield isn't very practical for the road is it as Jim would agree in a thread he actually started about the Aston Martin CC100? Would Jim really have kept 0858 as a Can Am Barchetta and used it on the road with lights as he says he would, also bearing in mind his obvious and very understandable love for the P4 form and track record for rebodying cars to look like P4s?

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/special-projects-concept-cars/410173-aston-martin-cc100.html#post142338306

 

I have read these 2000+ posts and it is certainly interesting. Nothing really to add except this . . . I think the Can Am in this picture is a beautiful car. Has Ferrari made other cars more beautiful? Of course but this was a rare and beautiful car.

It is a shame that Piper screwed it up.

 

Great reminder of what we'll probably never see again.