David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

My substance is about the same as yours. I've been a Ferrari fan since the 70's.

As far as actual hands on expierience goes, My best friends father growing up was a Ferrari restorer so I grew up in his shop helping and watching him build many vintage ferraris.

I don't need to own or race a P4 to be an enthusiast. All I need to do is know enough from researching, as you do, what is right and wrong with the cars.

Frankly, if you have enough substance to argue the point, well then... so do I.

 

My big question that has gone unanswered is...why. If this car was so important, why did it not sell? Why did nobody step up and save it? Now that's it's being converted back to its original state as it rolled out of the factory ( although not 100% correct) is it getting the attention? The car went unsold for a very long time.. The big shots
In the collector world didn't want it... Including Jim it seems. Wh the big hoopla now?

 

It didn't sell because the owner didn't take my bid of 5MM euros which I believe was the highest real bid. He accepted Talacrest's offer after the auction and they went down this path and are now offering it for 25mm USD. Their Piperised version has remained unsold for years despite the efforts of Collins, his PR People and their Toute.

 

But isn't the car worth more then 5m? As its such an important part of ferraris racing history. There are far less of these race cars then 250gto's yet they command over 30m. This does not make any sense to me at all.

I would think it would be worth the 25m just because it was the only one left. Why did nobody buy it? Could the looks of the thing have anything to do with it? Me thinks yes.

 

A lot more than looks make it cheaper than a 250 GTO. Even given its relative rarity.

Though I suspect you may know this.

 

First of all this auction was years ago and prices were less. Secondly at that time with buyers premium, VAT on buyers premium, US Customs duty, NYS sales tax and a TOTAL restoration which IMO it need to be safely used I wouldn't have had much change left over from a 12MMUSD bill. P cars so far trade at about 1/2 of 250 GTO's so 12mm then was about 1/2 of where GTO's were trading then.

 

By your reasoning 0858 is a bargain then at $25 million US as it's been reported here by your friend Michael, who you say is always accurate, that a GTO recently fetched over $53 million. $25 million was less than half of $53 million when I went to school.

VAT on Buyer's Premium payable by a US citizen on a car going to US. Are you sure?

 

It ain't a bargain because 0858 is now bastardized. Also note that the 12MM tag is after a complete restoration. So the car, in its state during the auction courtesy of Medlin, was worth substantially less than a pristine quality P car - which may have been worth 1/2 of a 250 GTO - and even still it would depend on the P car in question, I would say.

 

nor is a P4 according to Ferrari.

It's a 350 Can Am with a period incorrectly made replica P4 body, an incorrectly shaped P4 windscreen, a 350 not 330 engine despite being falsely advertised as a 330 fitted with an incorrectly formed P4 header tank missing the correct P4 "A" "C" valve, etc., etc., etc.

The fact that it remains unsold at it's 25MMUSD asking price and has remained for sale for a long time are facts that speak for themselves.

 

I don't think Ferrari would Classiche 0900 003 either would they, Jim?

Anyone who had a problem with the nose and tail being made by an English Wheel could quite easily get these sections hammered up quite easily in Italy.

Your picking on the header tank when the header tank on your version of 0846 is incorrect is very telling. The car is not even finished yet.

 

Pay more, for the service that was unnecessarily done wrong in the first place? Hm...

 

Pocket money compared to the value of the car. The nose and tail being made by Piper would have value too. My guess is the buyer will be very happy with the bodywork anyway.

 

Again.. Why if it is such an important car did nobody buy it before it was returned to a P4 coupe? I would think it should have been a priceless car. But it appears that it wasn't worth anything as it sat. Nobody bought it.

You should have bought it and savers us the grief of this thread!!

 

Actually somebody did buy it, Talacrest, and that's what certain people evidently have a problem with. It's the one that got away.

 

But why should someone spend more pocket change on a car that is suppose to be done by "the experts"?

And does someone really want to sell a nose and tail that most likely has very few buyers in some e-bayesque fantasy auction and then spend months waiting for the new one to be done correctly after they shelled out millions?

If these guys are so great do you not agree that it should be good to go when you write the check?

And if there are obvious mistakes that the buyer has to fix do you not think that this speaks to countless shortcomings that aren't known about yet?

If they can't get the hammer body correct, which is an obvious and the way that these Vintage F-cars were formed do you think they are really tending to the ones that take proper research?

No matter if it's spare change or not, does someone who pays this amount for a car supposedly done by "the experts" want to deal with searching and sorting out problems they left behind?

I think not.

Do you really believe someone that would finish a car to leave it to the next owner to do it right can be called an expert?

I get that you want to stand by your man crush with Piper but come on. Can you really say this car was done right if it needs to be re-done by the new owner to actually be...done right?

Would still love to hear your opinions on the questions I asked before that you seem to be avoiding.

 

People don't have a problem with Talacrest buying the car.

People have a problem with Talacrest butchering an original piece of history for a hacked together piece of fantasy.

 

As for the P-car is approx worth half of a GTO. As stated before the GTO's higher asking price is partly due to it is much more useable as a street car thus more of a market for people that want to roll to the strip club in style.

Also as stated that estimate wouold be for a car that is sound and restored, which we all know this car was not when it was sold.

The question I have is did Talacrest just splash a pretty face on this car or did they also include restoration of all the systems including making the frame safe to run fluids through etc?

Is the buyer gettting a fully restored car for whatever it ends up selling for 5 years from now or is the new owner gonna have to throw more "spare change' down on brake pads and fresh engine oil?

 

My guess would be the extensive amount of work needed to make the car a priceless car left it being less then priceless.

 

Check that.. Your right. It is the one that got away, and now a few people have a problem with it. If it was really that important it would have been saved a long time ago.

 

I am just overcoming an objection if a potential buyer did have a problem with the rolled body but please reread my post. I said that I think the buyer would be very happy with the body. There is more than 1 way to skin a cat, or a P4 in this case. I have it on good authority from a long standing and very highly regarded employee of Maranello Concessionaires that the person fabricating the body is an expert.

May I remind everybody here that the car is not yet finished. If you want to find fault with it do it when it's finished and when we can see the end product.

 

The body is finished.

The guy may be an expert on the English wheel but what does that matter?

He may be the best in the world at the english wheel but it still isn't correct no matter how perfect he makes it. Which is the point. These cars were imperfect body-wise. And in a proper restoration should be done this way.

I highly doubt someone paying this kind of money is gonna be happy with a car that is not done correctly.

That's like saying the guy who buys a daytona and it is done incorrectly is gonna be stoked when he brings it to a concours and scores a 67 due to it is done incorrectly.

People that pay this amount want the real deal. If they wanted nice enough they would get a Norwood.

 

By the way Miura

You seem like a nice guy. And honestly also seem very passionate and knowledgable when it comes to these cars.

I do respect your opinion and what I've learned from reading your research.

I guess that's why it frustrates me that you can't see that this is a less then stellar effort in them doing the car the way it should be. Do you really think that this car was done to the level that a car of this stature should be???

 

Thank you, Vincent. I respect your opinion too and see the intelligence in your writing. We can't really say that it's a less than stellar effort at this moment in time as the project is not yet finished. It's like when certain people prematurely jumped on the strips on top of the side windows and said they were incorrect. They were there to support the frame while that and the window is mounted.

 

I thought this was an interesting quote by Rob Lay on the Gas Monkey F40 thread

"I disagree, it isn't trying to be something it isn't like the Linder F40 (LM). This car is still 90% Ferrari and F40, not trying to fool anyone, and it has a unique twist on the 10% remaining. Eventually this car will be restored to stock with Ferraris help."

which could be equally applied to P4 0858. It is what it is, the current owner is in no way denying the back story and any future owner will get a cut price P4 that they can then do what they like with inc making any changes that have been identified in this thread as being required if they so desire.

The slating of the body, glass, engine is purely to try to put the car down for some reason, any interested purchaser will be well up to speed on all these things when they enter into a negotiation to purchase with the current vendor.

No one who buys such a car takes the word of any seller regardless, they all do their homework first.

 

The fact that an interested party should do their homework is no excuse for mis-representing what it is by the seller. Just my opinion.

Best,

Jack.