David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Actually you haven't heard him or you don't listen?

This is blatant B.S.

Ferrari models have always been known by their engine displacement with few exceptions:Mondial, testarossa etc.

One of the first things I learned as a young Ferrari enthusiast was this. A 308 was a three liter 8 cylinder. a 246 was a 2.4 liter 6 cylinder. And that the 12 cylinder number was devised from displacement per cylinder.

Ferrari himself has said many times you buy the engine the rest is gravy.

They are calling this car a 330 due to the body shape which is a blatant novice mistake or them trying to create something that it isn't to mislead and close a sale.

If they were to be honest they would call the car what it is a 350 can am rebodied as a P4 just as you would say it's a 330 GT rebodied as a GTO etc.

They are trying to pull a quickie making it seem like this car is something it isn't Anything is a sum of it's parts and in this case the sum doesn't add up to 330 P4.

Defending this car as a genuine 330 P4 is just acinine.

 

What a weird post, its the naysayers that need to actually stop harping on.

Its a done deal, get over it, repeating over and over again the same tired things does not prevent the fact the revision back to P4 is all but done and it wont ever go back.

If the car could not find a buyer at the cut price offer it sold for in Cam Am guise until Talacrest came along, then no one is going to pay vastly more to purchase it then change it back again

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

True.

 

Italians are passionate people.

Therefore it is no surprise to me that their cars bring passion out of people and send tempers flaring.

 

I don't believe this. Mindsets and markets change. It wont surprise me one day when there are no longer a hundred some GTO's and old GTE's are worth restoring. I think that one day people will realize that this P4 is a recreation and that the real car is the true prize.

I don't think the chapter is closed on recreations staying recreations forever.

 

The post was made when I was unaware that it had reached its end user. In that context it made sense.

In fact if it is a resolved issue on your side why continue? The car is what it is. End of your story.

Those who take issue here are not just concerned with this one car but the larger issue of preservation. That is an ongoing discussion.

Not too weird a post I hope.

 

In this case I believe the cars should be represented as such.

Just as one would represent the car as having non-matching numbers.

This is a california spyder with a replacement 330 engine etc.

Disclosure. The car is what it is and should be represented that way.

At this level buyer beware is a bunch of crap. Yes the buyer should beware but if the seller isn't a total scumbag it is their duty to also make them aware of all the knowledge they have on hand.

 

Yes, that's part of it, but there is a bit more personal history involved if you go back a few years.

 

You really think that 0858 or 0860 or 0844 will ever be seen as CanAm version??!! Also get real......by calling this car a recreation you better start calling 80% of vintage racers the exact same thing.

Also lol at the false 330 vs 350 advertising argument...you actually get a more powerful engine btw. And TC are not hiding anything, there are plenty of photos on their site showing 0858 in all 3 configs or has anyone spoke to them and they (falsely?) claimed it still has the original P4 engine?!

 

Exactly. This is not just about one car but the preservation of the marque.

If standards of historical morality aren't set and put into the mindset of future collectors these cars will all but be destroyed.

 

None of these 2 Cal Spiders are for sale, they are privately owned. Same for that 4-liter powered GTO, also not for sale and privately owned.

Whoever buys an object: At the end of the day it is all about doing the homework. It is also called Due Diligence.

Marcel Massini

 

I could see it happening yes. Maybe it wont but to count it out is ridiculous.

It is a recreation to me not because the bodywork has been re-done such as is the case of most vintage racers. It is a recreation to me because the car was last built as a 350 Can Am and is still recognized as a 350 can am by Ferrari and has been rebodied as something else. Just as a 250 gte rebodied does not magically turn it into a GTO.

In the case of the vintage racers they are mostly just re-bodied or repaired as the car they are recognized by Ferrari. And if bodied as something else then they are recreations or whatever definition you want to use.

As far as the engine thing. They advertise it as a 330 P4. If you know ANYTHING about Ferrari the 330 denotes the engine displacement. A picture of a can am body does nothing to disclose that the motor is not a 330.

Sure it's a more powerful engine. Might as well just bolt up a space shuttle engine if that's your logic... LOL. But in the collector circle every nut and bolt of originality matters and my guess is something as large as the wrong displacement engine matters to someone that wants the actual car and not a fascimile of it. If not the actual engine I'm sure it will be reflected in it's perceived value. LOL.

 

I agree. I just believe that people should be as upfront as possible with the knowledge they have. For me it is integrity but I realize that doesn't make it law and that due diligence is always required.

I'd also like to thank you for all I have learned over the years from your great contributions. At this point Massini is borderline synonymous with Ferrari.

 

1. There is no GTO that later became a GTE, so that argument doesnt mean anything.

2. Ferrari has certified complete replicas - which 0858 today is NOT IMHO - in the past, so their opinion what is correct and how that car should be called doesnt matter that much.

3. I wouldnt say Ferrari "built" 0858 as a CanAm. It was more of a hastily done hackjob performed on the original car.

 

1. When did I ever say that a GTO became a GTE??? To clarify what I meant by this if not obvious? Is that it wouldn't surprise me if the re-creation thunder died down ad GTE's that were converted to GTO's were one day valued more as the actual car and were converted back to GTE's.

I hope eventually cars will become more valued as what the factory actually perceives the true car to be. Therefore a vintage race car rebodied, due to damage, as the same car recognized as it is by the factory is a completely different case then a car re-bodied to a different form then recognized by the factory. To me damage repair with new panels is not preferable but is the only option to keep the car going so it is what it is. But in this case the car is being re-bodied to a car the factory does not recognize it as even though the real car still exists.

Meaning if someone wrecks their 250 SWB and then later it emerges as a 250 SWB it is what it is. But if someone Wrecks their 250 SWB and then it emerges as a 250 GTO it is not what is is. It's a recreation.

2. I'm guessing they certified them by mistake. And in that case it is them looking at a car and not recognizing what it is whereas this is them knowing the car and saying what it is in their eyes when it last left the factory. In this case they changed the identity of the car and it is know known as such.

3. However it was done it was done and that is what the car is recognized by them as today. Putting a different body on a car doesn't magically change what the factory designates it is. They have they final word and they have stated what it is quite clearly.

 

Mondial and Testarossa cars were always identified by their engine displacements: 250 TR,500 Md and then there is is 500MdTR. Being factually correct on F Chat is desired. tongascrew

 

.....engine and the rest is gravy. Yes but E F had his moments of being well behind the curve and paying the price. Disc brakes,mid engines,fuel injection,V8 engines to name a few.tongascrew

 

I missed this also. Until we know more, if we ever will, let's not speculate. There are so many possibilities that to speculate would only confuse the issue even more. tongascrew

 

I am sorry but what planet do you come from, completely off tangent thinking

A GTE converted to look like a GTO would never be economically viable to be converted back, thats why they get converted in the first place, not many people want or cherish them, that wont change ever.

No one would convert a SWB to a GTO unless it had been a GTO first.

You now deciding how and why Ferrari certified copies? but because it was a cock up thats ok then?

Ferrari dont have the final word, the owner does.

If Ferrari wanted 0858 to remain as a Can Am they would have bought it themselves.

 

Wow Mr V.V. seems to have no grip on reality. Scuderia Ferrari needed to be profitable,even the very best of the resto shops need to be profitable to exist. People whome we rely on like Marcel Marcini, Tom Schaughnessy and so many others charge for their services to continue. Maybe V.V. is independently wealthy but for most of the rest of us"enthusiasts" we need some form of profitable endeavor. tongascrew

 

I feel better knowing that someone who follows this thread as closely as you do missed it as well.

Few things stay secret in the Ferrari world so sooner or later we should know more.

 

Apparently there has been a buyer for several years. Until we know more it will be just another reason to disregard the meaningless insults being thrown around. tongascrew

 

HL has owned the car for years. Talacrest is his agent to sell the car. It's been for sale Piperised for years and still is. Nothing new or changed.

 

and somehow that makes it magically all ok what the owner does? What the owner does is destroying a perfectly authentic car to make it into something it is not, with a questionable out of period replica body.

Perhaps that is all fine and well in the legal sense of the word, whether or not it is morally ok is for anyone else to decide for themselves. So, you either find it ok to get rid of the final remaining 350 Canam car in order to make it into a recreation of a P4, or you don't. I, myself, don't think it is ok at all. Can't do anything about it, won't do anything about it, but I can certainly vent my opinion about it. And so I have. Multiple times even.