David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

and is this private owner having the work done for his own pleasure, or is he planning to sell the car for the rumored 25M?

 

Advertisers around the world have been doing just this long before Madison Ave even existed. Most just complain and may buy the product anyway.The smart people analyse the promotion first, decide if the product has real value and then decide. Truth in advertising is largely a myth. The smart ones use it as a bargaining chip. tongascrew

 

Agreed. I'm the last one to put any stock in adverts.
My issue with them (and it applies here as well) is that dumbs down the consumers and quality suffers. Be it hamburgers or collectibles.

 

This has been my understanding all along.
Isn't talacrest advertising it?

Edit: just checked and its for sale on their web site.

 

Just because Enzo Ferrari did just this on many occasions, even four times with the King of Belgium,most of the rest of us shouldn't do this unless............ tongascrew

 

That rationale didn't even work in grade school.
If Johnny jumped off a cliff....

 

Just consider the source.It usually means that much of what else they have to say can be disregarded. tongascrew

 

HL bought a 350 Can Am. He Piperised it and put it up for sale via Talacrest. He's asking 25MMUSD. Talacrests PR company and Touts promote on FB and here but after a long time it's still for sale.









































piperised

 

I agree with you on this. And more to my point of F-cars being designated by engine displacement. These cars are known by which motor is in them more than any other characteristic.

To the general public though the modern Mondial are known by namenot engine displacement and are marketed as such. To clarify I am not referring to the vintage cars such as the 500 mondial or the 250 testarossa.

So calling a car a 330 P4 when then motor is clearly a 350 is incorrect. The proper way to name this car would be a 350 Can Am with a P4 body but if you were to take liberty's it would be a 350 P4 recreation.

 

I'm not saying he didn't. But that is where history lays for better or for worse.

 

Look up "rationale" There's non here.Are "grade school" comments the best you can do? tongascrew

 

George. There's really no need for that.
Yes I was saying that the rationale behind your example wouldn't pass muster in grade school.

 

I'm not saying it is economically viable right now. But I think it's narrow minded to think that it will never become so. Back in the day when these were being converted in mass quantity's GTE's were bone cheap, if I recall correctly around 30K. As you know the price on a GTE has gone up significantly since then. 10-20 years from now people may value that real GTE more then they value a fake GTO. If all anyone valued was a fake GTO more the a real GTE then there would be no GTE's left. I'm not saying it is GONNA happen. What I'm saying is markets and mindsets change and no one can determine that but time and how the market reacts.

Also Money value is not the only value that drives peoples decisions. There is a value called the real thing versus fantasy land. Some people, many in fact, value a real Ferrari more then they value a recreated Ferrari. Some people, obviously not you, are driven by more then money.

I am also not saying that someone is gonna convert a SWB to a GTO. I am using this as an example to prove a point not saying that it will literally happen. Although you never know as there is a Lusso that has been converted.

The point I am making with this comparison is in regards to this...

The point being that if you wreck a SWB and re-body it as a GTO it is a recreation. The 80% tilo speaks of are not having this done. These 80% that are rebodied due to damage are mostly rebodied as the car they were before the accident so therefore not a recreation but a repair. Whereas in this case 0858 is not being rebodied as a repair to the car that it is recognized by the factory as. It is being rebodied as a car the factory says it isn't. So the 80% comparison is not the same thing.

The owner doesn't have the final say of what the car is. Only Ferrari does as they are the manufacturer. Sure the owner can rebody his GTE as a GTO if he wants to but that doesn't make it a GTO. It's still a GTE rebody. If this is not the case then GTE rebody's would be selling at GTO prices cause the owner said it was a GTO. The owner can't say it is. Only Ferrari can decide what the car truly is or isn't.

Not saying it is OK that ferrari made the mistake. What I am saying is that in this case they are saying the car is a 350 Can Am and therefore that's what it is. No amount of body work will ever change that.

I gotta wonder what planet you are from that you think someone can decide what a car is other then the manufacturer. If the owner could decide what the car is then there would be guys selling Vega's as authentic GTO's all day long because the owner decided those Vega's were GTO's.

I'm not saying Ferrari cares what happens to 0858. What I am saying is that whatever does happen they still, at the present time, see the car as being a 350 Can Am. And I would bet they don't even see it as that anymore but now as a 350 Can Am that has been chopped up.

 

I get that for some they're in a business and their needs to be profit.

I'm not saying that if you profit off of something you are not an enthusiast.

I am saying that if profit is your driving force to be involved with Ferrari's then you are a salesmen not an enthusiast.

If profit is what is important overall these cars will cease to exist.

 

0858 P4 well restored to near original. Simply this is what a restoration is. I quote from Webster #2 "..The bringing back to an original...condition...".May I also suggest you listen to both parts of the interview by John Collins with David Piper. If the car is to be driven in speed events certain adjustments need to be made for it to qualify.Any P4 in my opinion should be made race ready.After all this the sole purpose for the car's existence. As only a show piece does not do full credit to the beast. tongascrew

 

Sure. But you cannot restore something that is not recognized as being that thing.

The car is recognized as being a 350 Can Am.

Parts of it were on 0858 P4.

But the factory ended the life of 0858 P4 in 67. Changed the car. Changed the paperwork. Thus changing it's identity forever.

Therefore you cannot restore a car to what the factory says it isn't. You can recreate it which is happening here.

I believe the car should be made to run at full anger.

But I doubt it is being restored to what it was back in the day even when it was a P4. I have watched the videos. There are many apparent mistakes that we know at this point will not be remedied in this build. But you wont admit that even though it is so glaringly obvious.

Thanks for the definition and proving my point....

First of all... Restored to near original and bringing back to original are two different things. One is near, the other is to. If you're webster definition argument held any water then this car would be brought back to original condition in a restoration, not to, it has not been. So therefore due to your definition it has not been restored. If it was to original condition the tail would be done to original condition, the windscreen would be to original condition, along with prob many other oversights that we don't know of yet that have not been unearthed. For instance have they restored the frame to run the fluids though? Or are they just getting near to getting it right?

Maybe you are the one with endless amounts of money cause you seem to think that a car that still needs work done to it after a restoration is ok????

 

Let get over this "0858"
Do not forget, an owner of a car can do whatever he/she likes. No comma.
If LS brings his 0856 to DP and asks to make him a Can Am version and crush the P4 panels, DP or any other carrozzeria will do it. BUSINESS.
Not many fchatters or collectors will like it, but hey...its a car!
Many many Fs, Bugattis, Alfas etc on the Pebble Beach greens are 'new' or heavily (over)restored.
0858 will always be a 'stories' car. One should do his homework if he wants to own a 95% / real deal Ferrari / Bugatti. I would say: less then 0.001% of all classic cars is 99/100% the same as it left the factory. Do YOU really care if you are not the owner?
so many people so many different opinions

Here in NL we lost a few famous paintings (deliberately burned to ashes)
IT IS GONE, SAD, BUT GET OVER IT.

 

You can be an enthusiast and a salesman. 20 years ago I became a salesman of classic Ferraris, giving up a successful career in a completely different industry, due to my lifelong passion for the brand.

 

Question, PAUL500, Does 3673SA exist on your planet- or am I being completely off tangent with my thinking ??? LOL.

 

Talking of 3673SA, does anyone have any recent pictures of it, or know for sure what configuration the car is in today? It had been stated a while back that it was back at the factory being rebodied as a SWB.

 

I agree with this. I'm not saying people that make money in the Ferrari biz are not enthusiasts.

I'm saying when you're motivation is Money over passion then not so much.

Also, I'm not against recreations. Actually quite the opposite. I love the idea of recreation toolroom copy cars. I more or less agree with the points of view that Boxerman has stated in this thread. But I don't like seeing good real cars demolished for a copy.

I would love to own a handful of recreations and drive them till their wheels fell off. I would have no problem with this or feel embarrassed that it was a copy.

The GTE's I don't think should be butchered but I can live with that. Wheras with this it's one of a kind. I just don't think it should die. It would be the same argument if it was the other way around and 0856 was being converted to Can Am. It's mostly seeing the last one go away. Mostly when there are so many copies of P4's.

Tonga put words in my mouth. I have no problem with people that profit from their passions. I have a problem with people that destroy history for profit. And I also have no problems with salesman. I believe we are all salesman one way or the other. I would define my distaste for what I see as a snake oil salesman.

I think there are no greater enthusiasts then the guys that painstakingly restore these cars and I have no greater respect than for those guys that build recreation body's, for the good one's are every bit as talented as the ones that built them back in the day. I respect everyone that profits by helping to keep these cars alive.

Nothing more that I would love to do then sandcast 250 engines all day long and build recreations that don't sacrifice real cars.

Also I highly respect that you gave up another career to follow a career that involved your passion.

Do what you love.

 

That doesn't exist on his planet. But it exists on mine. He prob lives on the planet where 246 Dino's will never be worth enough money to warrant a restoration.

These are the Enzo Era cars. There is no telling what the market will do. These will always be the Ferrari's amongst collectors and there are only so many genuine real deal cars and there wont be any more. Ever. Unless we figure out a time machine or how to bring back the dead. Ever. Ever. Ever. Did I say ever?

The only way I can see these cars not being worth restoring to their original form in the future, including 308 gt4's etc, is if people in the future lose all interest in Ferrari.

What people don't realize is that these cars are a dying breed in many ways. Not only is Ferrari arguably the most desirable car ever built the vintage Ferrari's are more then that and those with race pedigree's even more. Here we have lost a truly rare bird. And I feel that someday someone will recognize this not only with the Can Am but the GTE's as well.

Some say they are not desirable and never will be.

Tell me that in five years when most of the cars are front wheel drive automatic hybrids.

Tell me that in twenty when gas cars are oddballs.

On the planet I live in I see rear wheel drive gas cars as becoming much more valuable then they are now as the herd thins and new technology takes over.

And I see Authentic Vintage Ferrari's as being the most valuable of the bunch.

But then again my planet seems to be light years away from yours.

 

I am not knowledgeable enough to know the history of every single ferrari, so please tell us more about this car, when was the conversion carried out, in what state was the swb when it was converted, and in what configuration is the car currently?

Love how the clinger on of false hope jumps on board when even they obviously did not know about this car otherwise they would have mentioned it themselves.

 

This one is a tough nut to crack. I believe there is an answer but I have yet to know enough to know what it is.

I believe the basic story goes that it is a 400 super america with I believe a 250 SWB body from the factory. But it has also carried a GTO body for many years. I believe now it is being back to a 250 SWB and that the other 250 SWB body resides on another GTE.

But if there needs to be a fact check I'm not completely sure the above is correct.

I knew about this car. Obviously you didn't. But it is also a oddball case cause I believe at it's basis it is not either a 250 swb or a 250 gto but a 400 Super America released by the factory with a 250 SWB body. Then converted to GTO later on. And I believe converted back to SWB. But it does show that there is a possibiltiy of what you thought couldn't happen... happening.

I didn't talk about it because it doesn't 100% fit the bill as it is an oddball and really neither car here nor there, and in reality I was talking about conversions/repairs done more in the modern day then in the past. But this is a good example of what you thought was impossible being reality.

I was trying to asnwer the question of an old race car/street car that sustained damage having to be re-bodied. I feel that they have to be re-bodied as the cars they were. Not the cars people want them to be.

You on the other hand can cling on to whatever you want.

 

You cant really compare the P3/4/CanAm case with GTE/GTO/SWB rebodies or recreations, because many people - including myself - dont really see the CanAm version as a legitimate car design on its own right. It was just a chopped down version of the original. And therefore its not really a tragic loss to see the last former CanAm P car being brought back to how it looked before that unfortunate transformation. If 350 CanAM had been an all new design built up with a few parts of a P4 one could make a very good case that it needs to preserved, but....this is very different.

BTW, anybody know what Ferrari's opinion is of 0844? AFAIK this one retained the original 412P engine or at least its still 330 and cosmetically brought back from CanAm to P car body, so can this be classiched as genuine 412P as opposed to a 350 P4?!