David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

0844 still has a 330 engine, though it was changed from tipo 216 to tipo 241 when it was converted by the factory from a P3 to a 412P losing its fuel injection to Weber carburettors. My guess would be that 0844 in 412P form may qualify for White Book Ferrari Classiche certification as a Ferrari of Historical Interest, not meeting the criteria for Red Book as it last left the factory as a 330 Can Am.

 

It was done by the factory. How could it not be legitimate? Just because the car is based on a pre-existing Ferrari, it is less legimate?

You can justify destroying the last remaining Canam all you want, but denying it's authenticity as a Ferrari competitioncar is just ludicrous. But same goes for preferring a Ferrari with a replica body over any completely authentic Ferrari.

 

A thought experiment: imagine you have this 350 Can Am conversion, in finished condition, on your showroom floor, or your consignment list or whatever. How do you describe it in written materials, or orally? What disclosures do you make to a customer who, to your knowledge, does not know about the car's 350 Can Am past? What about a customer who, to your knowledge, does not know about the English wheel panel fabrication, or the incorrect engine and transmission, or the other incorrect details?

 

For Sale As-Is no warranty

 

If you knew your Ferrari history from the 1950s you would understand my comment. Do your homework, find out why the King of Belgium important to the discussion of the vintage years. For most of us grade school Ferrari is not what is taught in the vintage section of F Chat. tongascrew

 

It'll be interesting to see what happens with 0858 if it ever goes to Italy, since the factory won't recognize it as even a Ferrari of historic significance.

Then, rightfully so, it should be classified as a replica. But it'll have badges.

Will the Italian authorities confiscate and destroy? Is there a 25mm Dollar risk here?

Best,

Jack.

 

So you're handing out homework now?

 

You brought up the grade school thing. All I did was politely disagree. Now let it go and show me a college level critique that befits F Chat. tongascrew

 

Recognized as being a 350 Can Am.Apparently the owner, Talacrest, John Collins and myself and a quiet majority, many across the pond, believe the car should be returned to what is was originally.There may be disagreements on how that is being done. Welcome to the world of Ferrari restorations. At best a restoration of one of these cars can only be done as NEARLY as possible to the original. This is the golden rule. What was ORIGINAL may be subject to the definition of what was original and for how long before it was changed and by who. Once this is understood it may not change minds but it's just the way it has been and will continue to be. tongascrew

 

The tipo 603R gearbox in 0858 is correct for P4 configuration. I have this in writing from the head of Ferrari Classiche. Also look in Christian Huet's Cavallleria book Ferrari P3/412 P for the gearboxes used in each configuration of the P3, 412P, P3/4 and P4. In the same book it is stated that the 350 Tipo 247 engine was also used in 0846, which was the prototype for the P4, at the April 1967 Le Mans practice laps. If true, it could be said that the engine in 0858 has been used in the P4, albeit the P4 prototype car, as well as a Can Am by Ferrari in period so therefore a correct engine tipo utilised in a P4. Anyway, the only difference between the tipos 237 and 247 are the 2mm bigger bore and pistons in each of the cylinders. They are essentially the same engine. Furthermore I'd say that every tipo 247 350 engine was once a tipo 237 330 engine, and will have been used in a P4, including the unit in 0858, just bored out to accept the 2mm bigger pistons.

 

Only a suggestion. I try to base my posts on published research [homework] I have done.When I need help I rely on help from others who are better informed on the subject. See the "Le Mans 1966 0848" thread above. Try it.You'l learn something. Maybe some day you will make a worthwhile contribution to F Chat. tongascrew

 

The factory failed to recognize they were displaying the wrong car in the Galleria when what they put on the stand was not the car that won the 1963 Mille Miglia. They also showed a 250 California with the wrong chassis number. Also if you are going to make statements like this show us where the factory has stated they" 'won't recognize it as even a Ferrari of historic significance".Many would like to see this. tongascrew

 

Please then. Explain your factual researched research that Enzo Ferrari handed over the P4 reigns to David Piper and made him the worlds leading P4 expert. Personally I think the guy that does his research and doesn't make the blatant mistakes that Piper does as being the worlds leading P4 expert.

Sorry but you critiszing him is the headers calling the mufflers black. You may research but you are plenty guilty of spreading false assumptions due to assumed research.

No reason to get nasty. You've made plenty of worthwhile contributions and I have learned alot from them and I thank you, but you are definitely guilty of strewing about a bunch of worthless and misleading information cobbled together to fit your argument.

 

There's a difference. That was a mistake as they didn't realize what car it was. A mistake.

Here they know exactly what this car is, where it has been, the history and the present of it, and what they think about it.

It is not the same as mis-certifying a car and making a mistake. They are saying this car that they knew was once a P4 is no longer a P4.

Please research and state the facts. Otherwise your contributions to F-chat are worthless. It's pretty laughable when the fact king is spinning yarns.

Where did I get this info from? Napolis. Who I would guess is getting the real story. Or do you have access to better research in your stack of papers then him?

 

First I do appreciate your comments about learning from my contributions. Thank you. As I have said before to others, do the home work. I don't have the time to do it all for you. Your can start with Google and go thru the hundreds of threads and posts about Piper Then check out the Ferraris he has owned, prepared, raced, and restored. Then Google the combination of Enzo Ferrari/David Piper which will help you understand what went on between them. Then Google the individual Ferrari cars and other makes he has been involved with. Trust me David Piper is no prince of good all good deeds. However his contribution to motor racing and Ferrari is right up there with Swatters, the Marzottos , Colonel Ronnie Hoare, Chinetti,Colombo,Lampredi,Gozzi and so many others. When you have accomplished this then lets talk. tongascrew

 

I would never put Piper on par with the Marzotto's and definitely not with Colombo and Gozzi. Come on. He raced Ferrari's. So what? There are a lot of those.

 

That's one heck of a mistake when you misidentify one of your own cars that won one of the the greatest road races of all time.Yes Ferrari knows exactly what car 0858 is. It's not Ferrari that is saying 0858 is no longer a P4.As far as I know they have stayed out of the matter. It's nice Mr Napolis who says this. And he has every right to do so. There is no question he is an authority on two of these P4s.However others have another opinion which they also have a right to and there is plenty to back this up. And there is one in particular who knows and has had more experience with all facets of the P cars. David Piper and who did Glickenhaus go to to start his P4 project.Thats right, David Piper. I respect Jim. I just think it's to bad that despite their differences over 0858 Jim can't show D P the respect he deserves. After all with out Piper where would 0846 or Jim be today? Do the homework.tongascrew

 

This isn't about respect, this is about authenticity. Jim has specified exactly why this new 'P4' body is below of what can be expected of the work done on a car that should fetch 25 million when all is done. Maybe Piper is an authority on the P cars. Just makes the job he is doing all the more questionable.

Besides, this mr Piper of you unknowingly sold 0846 to Jim. That doesn't take away from his knowledge of these cars, but it does sound kind of sloppy, doesn't it?

 

True that sale as noted by Ferrari wasn't the smartest thing a "P4" Expert ever did.

So far unlike David I haven't had to click the box on the bottom right of screen next to the chassis # of one (or any of ) the Ferrari's that Ferrari lists that I own.
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