David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Its rather bizarre that the mistakes on this car are being dismissed as a mere feature in order to race prepare 0858.

 

Please add the information that 0846 has been raced by JG to your extensive files Tongascrew.

Thanks.

 

I'll go with Tonga on this one who was talking in the context of the cars being raced. It's a stretch to call a few exhibition pace laps a race. What position did you come in this race (a contest of speed) you speak of?

 

Where and when has 0846 been raced by JG? Results please.

 

Tonga said the cars wouldn't be seen on a track. He was wrong.

 

True.

What Tonga said was not true.

"Neither 0846 or 0854 will ever be seen on the race track in there present condition."

 

I've accomplished this twenty years ago. I know Exactly who David Piper is and what he's done. I also know who Nuvolari is. And I'm aware of who Count Francesco Baracca is, I am aware of many, many people involved with the great history of Ferrari. I am sure there are plenty of things you know about Ferrari that I have never heard of. I am also VERY sure there are many things I know about Ferrari that you are not aware of. I grew up in the world of Ferrari collecting for almost forty years with an ear and eyes open the whole time.

You are knowledgable and I have enjoyed reading your facts and figures over the years but you also have a lot to learn.

I have zero problem with Piper and respect a great many things that he's done with his life. Admittingly he's done alot of things with his life that I could only dream of doing with mine. This has zero to do with him as a race car driver. The comments in this thread are only about what he is doing to 0858 and the quality that he is doing it in.

I don't know why you have such a problem understanding this. Sure plenty of people respect O.J. as being a great football player, that doesn't change what he decided to do later on.

Just because you so much respect his racing career and involvment with Ferrari, which many would say was a detriment to the cars, doesn't mean that what he is doing here is right.

You keep bringing up who he is and what he's done. HOW does that give him a free pass for doing hacking up this car and doing it incorrectly?

We are not questioning his past, but his present. Just because you have a crush on him doesn't mean he's doing this right. It just means that you are turning a blind eye because you admire what he did before and equating that with a success in the present, which when it comes to doing this job correctly and being an expert job it clearly isn't.

 

I agree it was a heck of a mistake but it has no correlation to this argument. That was a mis-identification by one or more of their employee's whereas this is them knowing the car and saying they wont recognize it as what Piper wants it to be. If Piper was handed the so called reigns and was the glory child of the P4 world my guess is Ferrari would have no prob certifying his recreation.

And with Piper 0846 would prob be lost today because until Napolis figured it out he had no idea what it was.

I have no disrespect for Piper, rather the opposite, I admire the racing career and other things. But that doesn't mean I have to respect for him butchering a car with great history. And when I say car I mean both incarnations of 0858 because he is butchering both. Neither is done to the standard they deserve.

Don't you believe that a car such as this should be done to the top level whether it is in Can Am or P4 form?

 

True.

How about it Tonga?

"Don't you believe that a car such as this should be done to the top level whether it is in Can Am or P4 form?"

 

IMO, could have taken the car to a few different shops that for the right amount of money would have restored it to any and all spec. You could have said to a Paul Russell, Motion Products or even a Hall & Hall, maybe one of the Italian shops, and there are many others, who would have taken a couple of years and slowly and methodically researched all of the surviving cars, measured them, checked paint codes, everything and turned out the car exactly as it was in 1967, if thats your bag. Wouldnt be cheap but if you are selling the car for $25 million 10,000 hours of restoration would be just a drop in the bucket.
David Piper, I believe may be a particularly English school style of doing things, a bit rough, a little add a bit there, take away a bit, roughly right. Amateurish might be an accurate descriptor ????? And yes he raced all of the cars and then wrenched them or had his mechanics do the same but also he has built a lot of replica's like his Porsche 917K replica or his two 330P2's and they are sometimes accurate enough but in 2013 standards have moved along. He would be a decent consultant to advise what might have happened in 1967 such as I remember the car being a darker red or whatever but you cant beat pouring over photographs or the originals where possible to get accurate information.
However at the end of the day it is just a car and the next owner will get the chance to undo any sloppy work and start again.

Oh and did I mention it could be the greatest car in the world but it is just a car, dont need to get personal or nasty do we? I dont think David Piper is going to be kept awake at night worrying about what we think of him so why should we.

 

?

 

Whether it is being restored back to a P4 or as a Can Am, I can't imagine a better illustration of being "penny wise and pound foolish" than to use incorrect body methods on a car of this significance and value, especially since this car is already a lightning rod for controversy. Does anybody know why it isn't being restored with hammered panels? It can't be just cost savings, can it?

 

You need the correct toolings and skills, which are not availabe in the UK (or they do not know how to work with a maglio or eckold.
Coachbuilders in the UK use English wheels.
If a P car or whatever other Italian car was restored in the UK, 99.9% sure an engish wheel was used.
Today many Ferraris, even famous ones, have incorrect bodies or wrong type alloy.
GTO's, Testarossas, SWB etc
Strip the paint off and you see it.

 

And you really think this makes a difference.?? I have yet to see points taken of for an entire body or even a part of one that was built or repaired using the English wheel. There are plenty of them in use world wide including Italy and most accept this work as legitimate. Those who don't accept this are entitled to their opinions but they are going down in numbers all the time. Sorry but that is just the way it is. tongascrew

 

Thanks Tom. Do you know if the use of an English wheel has affected the value of the other significant Ferraris you mention?

 

Some owners don't care or don't even know.
It can affect the value.
Does the owner of a green GTO really care the car was restored with an english wheel? I doubt.

Finding the correct alloy sheet metal is an other challenge (60-70s alloy type for cars).
Why would coachbuilders choose 1.6-1.8 mm alloy sheet? Not always chosen by the owner because 'less dents senstive' but 'racing' type ultra thin 1-1.2 alloy can't be welded by many coachbuilders nowadays. Too time-consuming or just not having right the skills.

0858 will be a nice 350 Can Am "P4 Spyder", and for sure it will have a new owner who does not care about authenticity, correct restoration etc; but maybe he will restore it properly 'the italian way'. I do not think it will be converted to Can Am ever again.
I would bring 0858 to a good restoration shop and restore it to the real Ferrari underneath: Ferrari 350 Can Am, as it left the factory.

The discussion will never end. I don't care what HL did with the car. It is his car and he wants to make some pennies with it.
When he puts it in the crusher, shame, but life goes on. Titanic was a nice unique ocean liner, it's gone.

 

Boy you better come up with something pretty good to back this up. I will post a question about this and see what Jim has to say. David Piper did more than anyone to help Jim get started. He deserves considerable for this alone. tongascrew

 

Let's answer your question with your post. I did the research and wondering which one of your facts you wanna go with....

Hmmm.....

So which fact are you going with per your argument????

Bring it back to original condition?

Or door number 2.....

It doesn't matter if it's done correctly. no one cares?

Just the facts please. I don't want to compile mis-leading research. I need something with some substance in it.

 

Thanks -- good info

 

"to original condition" is relative
For one owner it is like: correct materials, shape, built, nice replica dash gauges and for the other: Modern alloy suits me, shape a little off, but 99% of the people wont see, made in China but correct and solid made and some nice Smiths gauges (because he did not want to spend 8000 for the gauges)