The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Metallurgic inspection can prove a chassis was made in the 60s or in, let's say, the 80s.
A snippet of metal from 0850/0854/0856/0858 etc and one from 0846 and you know the answer. Also: welds done in 1966 are done in a different way than today (by modern welding equipment., TIG, MIG etc)
Stamps of the ACO.......not done by the Italian chassis / coach builder of 0900-003.
Jim did you make ACO stamps and beaten it into the chassis / engine / gearbox ?? ;-)

 

Don't we all, including Ferrari, agree that the car Jim owns is at least built upon the remains of 0846? Whether or not that constitutes that Jim's actually is 0846 is apparently up for debate, but whereas Ferrari confirms this car as 0846, all is pretty much said and done, no?

 

Thanks.

Makes sense.

And then there's money.

Metallurgic inspection can prove a chassis was made in the 60s or in, let's say, the 80s.
A snippet of metal from 0850/0854/0856/0858 etc and one from 0846 and you know the answer. Also: welds done in 1966 are done in a different way than today (by modern welding equipment., TIG, MIG etc)

I was gonna ask this question. Figured some sort of carbon dating could nip this in the butt pretty quick but wasn't sure the technology existed. Thanks for clarification.

Still blows me away that Piper didn't realize what the twisted frame was versus the 0900 frames.

 

OK. Remorse from letting the money slip away.

 

Jeff

ICC/PFA can and do make what ever rules they do or want to.

Jess can have any stance he wishes.

None of this is new.

The facts that mattered in the legal proceeding I spoke of earlier that did matter was this email and the fact that only after receiving the information referenced and the digital photographs requested did Ferrari in their sole discretion published the fact that I was the owner of 1967 Ferrari 330 P 3/4 chassis 0846 and also publish the digital photo's I sent them of this car during restoration.

(See pages 109-112 in the pdf)

The process that Ferrari S.p.A. went through before deciding to place 0846 in “Your (MY) Garage”
is confirmed by Ferrari S.p.A. in the following email I received from Ferrari Customer
Service:

Dear Mr Glickenhaus,
We would like to inform you that we have received the complete brochure of your car.
We would kindly ask you to provide us with some digital pictures of the car, if possible, so to
forward them to the competent department for classical cars. Once these data have been entered,
the car can be visualized in your ‘Ferrari Garage’.
We thank you for your patience and would like to underline that these are not standard procedures.
Being yours a unique car, we need to work in a very scrupulous way.
We thank you very much for the kind cooperation and remain at your complete disposal for further
information.
With kindest regards,
Ferrari Customer Care

 

I only feel remorse when women slip away.

 

Piper paid the full amount for the chassis; but the italian seller was very clever....using a discarded chassis and sell it as a new made one
I met DP a few times, very nice guy and a real racer. He might not be that interested in 'correct/ real / authencity'
He said: some italian crap electronics and other parts were taken out and replaced by other (non italian) parts (his 250 LM)
0846: if Ferrari scrapped it, it was no longer in their documents; only on paper the car was gone. imho Ferrari themselves are the only one, as a manufacturer, who can give the numbers 0846 an official factory 'rebirth'. They are able to change / swap / rechassis/ modify etc
Jim has a 'real deal' Ferrari chassis, engine, gearbox and some other parts. Some will say a bitsa car, but I like that 'bitsa' and call it 0846 no matter what. The car is what it is and I believe nothing is/was hidden by JG.

 

Five thousand posts in open forum is a lousy way to hide.

 

As Bruce Willis might say . . . "Welcome to the party, pal."

Or as the old proverb goes . . . 'he who laughs last didn't get the joke at first."

For whatever reason, I welcome you to simply enjoy this wonderful car and its great history.

 

Yes, FWIW, I have always thought it's a great car, regardless of whether it was 0900 003 or 0846.

 

We would of already had you shot by now if we thought any different.

Or buy you a Lamborghini. Oh wait....

 

Napolis - is the link to your 0846 pdf broken? Haven't looked at it in years and now it seems gone....

 

This one works for me: http://www.ferrarichat.com/0846project.pdf

 

This thread is exactly what confuses me about the Ferrari collector car market.

Why and how can a car be reconstructed out of bits and peices still be called original? It certainly doesn't fly in the corvette and mustang world. If all I had of a 67 L88 corvette was the last 5 digets of the vin number, I would never be able to build an L88 out of it and call it real. Why is this able to happen in the Ferrari market?

 

This thread is exactly what confuses me about the Ferrari collector car market.

Why and how can a car be reconstructed out of bits and peices still be called original? It certainly doesn't fly in the corvette and mustang world. If all I had of a 67 L88 corvette was the last 5 digets of the vin number, I would never be able to build an L88 out of it and call it real. Why is this able to happen in the Ferrari market?

 

Really ? The Corvette and Mustang world is at that high of a standard?
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Who is referring to #0846 as "original"?

None of them are now. They all had engines and gearboxes and probably chassis numbers swapped as was needed to win races.

What I believe Jim has done with a high percentage of the original chassis and original mechanical components including either original for another car or new old stock bodywork is return the chassis to an original form/configuration. I believe via Le Mans tags the car now has an engine and gearbox it actually ran with at some stage. It's I guess as original as it can get for an old race car that was not stored in a barn and left idle for many years ... until ...

As for the Corvette and Mustang world, their paranoia comes from many thousands of cars being made in different performance or trim options, thus easy to replicate. This is why in that are original numbers matter as only way to be 100% sure you have the real deal.
Pete

 

Understood. Then shouldn't these types of cars be classified as reproduction containing "x" percentage of chassis number xxxx? I would think you should have at least 60% of a car before calling it anything else but a reproduction.

 

you may call it whatever you want. Jim has been overly transparent about all this. I have no problem in acknowledging that his car is built upon the remains of 0846. No car has a better claim on being P3/4 s/n 0846 than Jim's car. For me, the car is saved from the scrapyard and brought back to life thanks to a number of prosthetics.

 

GM VINS of the 60s include no engine code. Thus, all GM musclecars are notoriously easy to fake. Engine blocks can be decked and have new "matching numbers" stamped into them. Firewall data plates can be counterfeited -- and most of these do not include engine codes anyway. One indicia of authenticity used to be a the Protect-o-Plate: a metal plate stamped with raised numbers and letters, intended to be swiped like a credit card (ask someone over 50 about this) by the service department to document scheduled services for warranty purposes. But now these are easily counterfeited too. Today, the only reliable indicia of authenticity are known chains of custody from Day One, together with other documentation like contemporaneous DMV and service records.

In other words, if you believe that there are no fake tri-power 427 '67 Corvettes out there, you are mistaken. With an L88 '67 you might have more confidence, because there were so few of them made. But even with an L88 '67 you sure wouldn't buy one, at real deal prices, if it didn't have convincing documentation or was at least accepted by the experts as a gennie.

Mustang VINS did have engine codes in them. Pretty much all the Shelbys are all known and documented in the Shelby Registry. But even with cars that have engine codes in the VIN -- this includes Mopars too -- it is still possible to cut the vins out of a wrecked '68 Cobra Jet or a '69 Boss 302 and weld them into a good car.

What I'm saying, again, is that it would go too far to claim that all apparently authentic Detroit musclecars are what the owners say they are.

 

Thanks - that one works.

 

Correct.At the time the Piper's repro P4 went to Glikenhaus there was nothing at the time to indicate the chassis was 0846.The chassis tube with the sn #0846 had been destroyed by S.F. probably to ensure that legally this car no longer existed. Piper never new at the time he sold his reproduction P4 to Jim what the sn of the chassis remains received from S.F. used on this P4 was. This made sense since Ferrari had given Piper a chassis number to use on his reproduction P4s. tongascrew

 

Well put.There is no such thing as perfectly original with these restorations.This 0846 is as close to original as it comes. Thanks Jim. tongascrew

 

Correction, Ferrari gave Piper ONE chassis number for his reproduction P4: #0900. The others were just 100% replicas.
Pete

 

....which were all made by Vaccari along with the original P3 and P4 chassis. Out of interest what did Vaccari, the company that made it, say about chassis 0846/0900 003? Oh, don't worry. I found an answer here in the link: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-redline-restorations/423520-one-only-0846-debate-thread-208.html#post142614158