The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

"Depends. IF Ferrari simply states #0846 is destroyed, I will remain having doubts. If Ferrari can come up with a satisfying answer as to how it is possible that the chassis in Jim´s car is a P3-chassis, modified to a P4-chassis, without being the remains of #0846, than I´ll happily believe Jim does not own a car built upon the remains of #0846. But let´s be honest here, there is no such explanation. If there was, Piper would´ve stepped forward, Doug Nye would´ve stepped forward, Ferrari Spa would´ve stepped forward. Have they? No."

 

You're wrong again! Both Nye and Ferrari 'stepped forward'; have stated their position.
Do you believe them? NO !!
Nathan

 

No Nathan you are wrong.
David is demonstrably wrong and Doug has stated that there is a small possibility that I am right based upon reading my document.
That is fact.

 

Jim
What's your problem? Read my post properly - please.
I Quote; "According to Jim Ferrari are again considering this question. If they change their mind then I change mine."
The point that I'm trying to make is that some people don't know the difference between evidence and supposition. As I have to keep repeating (and I'm beginning to bore myself now ) This is the evidence (NOT theory) AT THIS TIME !!
Nathan

 

No Nathan not "According to Jim" According to the Publisher of Cavallino and Ferrari S.p.A's letter to me which speaks for itself.

 

Jim
Have it your way,
BUT - your comment that I continue to ignore the Publisher's note or Ferrari's letter is incorrect.
Again I Quote my own post; "Ferrari are again considering this question."
A little acknowledgement of that fact that I do NOT continue to ignore the publisher's note etc, would have been appreciated.
Nathan

 

It's a British/American thing. (I still don't understand warm beer.)
Best

 

How did the frames that Piper had built come to him? Were they bare frames painted with no components attached or did he get them with the skins attached? Correct me if I'm, but is the difference between the P3 chassis and the P4 chassis subtle enough that one wouldn't notice the difference with a casual look? I think Jim answered this in his doc, but my memory eludes me and I don't have the doc in front of me.
For those that don't believe the chassis is 0846, answer me this, where did it come from, who did the mods from P3 to P4. Where did the crash damage come from? The chassis exists with all of the mods and damage, and as Jim pointed out in his doc, it's not a P4 chassis built from P4 blueprints, it's a P3 modified to P4 specs, where did it come from if not from Ferrari?

 

Marnix, Paul S., Nathan & Ad de Koster,

I've just caught myself up on this latest thread regarding '0846'. We now have three options on why the chassis on Jim's car looks the way it does:

1. Mr. Piper did not know what he had.

If Mr. Piper had subcontractors build up a car to his specs, using components from his large parts inventory and somehow it was overlooked that a frame that matched the overall geometric specs but didn't match the tube layout of the blueprints was used during the cars assembly (Note: based on earlier threads, only 0900 was to be built, the other chassis', including 003/'0846' were built against Mr. Ferrari's wishes). Mr. Glickenhaus discovered that the chassis was not a P4 not when the car was disassembled but when his experienced mechanic pointed it out to him, therefore the differences are not immediately obvious. This theory has some sense as I understand that Mr. Piper maintained facilities in Italy when the car was built up.

If the chassis was received by Mr. Piper without being assembled into a car, this option is unlikely as he would have seen the 'defects'. If, however, he received 003/'0846' as a built up car the oversight is possible. Also, it appears that the car was used less frequently then 0900, was it ever wrecked under Mr. Piper's ownership? If not, there would be no need to strip it all the way down.

2. Mr. Piper created the chassis as a P3/4 to mimic 0846.

In a post I read in one of these threads a long time ago, it appears that Mr. Piper numbered the car 23 (the Daytona winning number) and called the car a P3/4. Mr. Piper did not take financial gain based on this and the effort seems extreme to do and keep secret. Also, based on paperwork already disclosed Mr. Piper stated that he sold a P4 chassis built based on P4 blueprints supplied to him by Ferrari thereby meaning Mr. Piper lied to Mr. Glickenhaus.

3. The chassis was modified under Mr. Glickenhaus's ownership.

As proposed earlier in this thread, Mr. Piper sold a car containing a P4 chassis built from blueprints owned by Mr. Piper and, at some point before Mr. Glickenhaus's going public, the chassis was modified to match its current description. A reason for doing so could be other than financial gain. If the car can be tied to 0846, it would be eligible for more events and would have more cachet. Possible evidence to prove or disprove this would be pictures taken during the PPI by Mr. Glickehauses mechanic while the car was at Mr. Pipers. However if no one suspected anything it is unlikely anyone looked in the right places.

I find this option highly unlikely based on Mr. Glickenhaus's history with J6 (his research showed that his car had a lesser history than he thought when he purchased it, yet he published his findings). Also, Mr. Glickenhaus has the means to acquire an original example of such a car (as he has demonstrated) so why risk his reputation on creating a forgery.

Conclusion:

Of these three theories, option 1 makes the most sense to me. A few corners cut (using an old chassis without telling your boss) during a period when these were just out of date racecars that were not discovered until the car was undergoing a restoration for its new owner. A simple oversight makes the most sense to me. Occam’s razor.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Wow,

I wrote my previous post over the course of the morning during breaks from work. The thread gained a page and a half in length since I started writing!

Moderators, as this a continuation of the previous '0846' superthread, and there is no chronological overlap, can we combine this thread into the last one. If combined, it might give the bikini thread a run for longest thread!

Regards,

Art S.

 

So Ferrari let him use the original P4 blueprints for just one car: 0900 yet he also made 0846. Did he make any others? What did Ferrari have to say about him making extra cars? Perhaps Piper thought by modifying a P3 chassis he wasn't violating the agreement?

Ken

 

Ken,

My understanding was that Piper was supposed to make one, he commissioned three: 001/0900, 002/'0900a' and 003/'0846'.

I think the blueprints were used again recently to make another repro.

Others will have to comment on Piper's and Ferrari's comments, thoughts and feelings about the extra cars.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Putting aside the accident damage for a moment:
You can convert a P3 chassis to accept a P4 engine. You can convert a P 3's
wheel base shortening it by 12mm to a P 4's wheel base. ( It's interesting that the person who designed the P3 and P4, who called 0846 a "Bastard Ferrari" forgot that the wheel bases are different in his Cavallino email) The P3/P4 Technical data sheet definitely show that they are, P3 2412mm P4 2400mm, without it being immediately obvious as you would have to LENGHTEN a P4 Chassis and do massive amounts of work that would be clearly visable.

 

Just curious why everybody assumes that any damage done to the frame was done by a LeMans accident or other racing injury? The crux of the entire theory is that the frame was piled up in a scrap yard with tons of other metallic debris. And of course we know that NO two pieces of metal in a scrap yard EVER touch or scratch or bend each other! I was pulling the bumper off a 57 Chevy in a scrap yard one time when the yard owner was towing around another car with a giant home made boom wrecker. The boom was swinging wildly back and forth and I was so afraid that it was going to come loose that I stepped back out of the way. The boom came loose and smashed into the 57 Chevy leaving a giant dent in the fender.

Years later, forensic experts will no doubt determine that the car suffered a traffic or racing accident in which the fender was bent.

One tale of Corvette lore talks about a restorer who discovered a Coke bottle INSIDE of a frame rail that could not have been put there except when the frame was actually being welded together. Obviously a prank by a bored assembly line worker.

Years later, forensic experts will no doubt determine that this Corvette spent time in a Coca Cola junkyard.

 

I believe there is also evidence of fire damage. Crash damage and fire damage are not likely to both happen in a junkyard. By the way, are there any period photos of Ferrari's junkyard? I've seen photos of the test mules and crash test cars in their junkyard, but nothing from the mid sixties. Anyone? I seem to remember in those photos things were stacked relatively neatly, rather than tossed in a pile, getting crushed in the process.

 

I have an old 3 wheeled U.S. Postal service truck that had the entire fiberglass top burned off when a grass fire roared through the salvage yard. I also saw a 1962 Chevy Impala SS Convertible stacked 25 feet off the ground on top of dozens of jumbled cars. The convertible didn't have one square foot without a dent in it.

My 1957 Corvette frame has a giant dent on the right rear wheel area. Did this damage also occur in the 1967 Lemans race???

 

What's more likely, crash damage and fire damage in the identical places that are documented or accidental damage from being stored in a junkyard happening in the same place? I think a knowledgable person could tell race damage from random damage occuring in a junkyard.

If you could prove your Corvette ran at LeMans, then, possibly, the damage could have occured there. but, 0846's chassis sustained both crash damage and fire damage that Jim has documented, not some what if scenario.

 

But now you're running in logic circles. You're trying to use the frame dents as proof that the car IS the LeMans racer and at the same time, you're assuming that the car IS the LeMans racer as proof that those frame dents occured in the LeMans race. That's what I call "dog chasing his tale" logic. One supposition alledgedly supports the other in an attempt to prove the validity of both. In the end, you've proven neither.

Now photographic proof of the conspiracy.
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Arlie this is a good question and there is a good answer to it that will come out after a while. I'm not being cryptic these things take time.

 

I think we're all agreed that Jim is a very unique owner as far as top-end Ferraris goes. Primarily, he uses his car, and makes himself freely available to others to share his enthusiasm & knowledge.
A lot of spite has started flowing in his direction via this thread, and personally I think the time has come to back off & let the issue get resolved the way it should be, ie between Jim & Ferrari. If it gets to the point where every time Jim posts here he is putting his head above the parapet, sooner or later he'll simply stop posting. That would be a major loss to this board.

www.fluidimages.co.uk

 

Really, Jim ? That seems a rather cavalier attitude - unusual for you.

 

You're making my head hurt. At least make a pic using someone who wasn't dead before the car in question was built.. OJ would've worked nicely.

C.

 

Well - almost, Arlie .... Unfortunately that's one of your 'originals' that I hadn't saved. But you have used something VERY similar, before. Right ?
Now - how about a new one ?

 

This has never been about what Ferrari thinks.
This has never been about what I think.
This has simply been a quest to try and find out what happened to the chassis remains of 0846 and where they wound up.
It does not matter one way or the other.
I believe I'm right but I no matter what my car may or may not be I love it very much and the whole process has given me much joy.
YEARS ago I said, and began my 100 pages by so stating, that by the criteria that Ferrari has chosen for their authentication process, my car as it exists today, could never be authenticated as 0846. I also pointed out that by Ferrari's criteria, the Le Mans winning MK-IV J5 couldn't be either. This is not new news. Nor is it new news that Ferrari considers the original 0846 BY THEIR DEFINITION to be no more.
Definitions are one thing. The truth is another and I remain convinced that my car does contain the substantial chassis remains of 0846.
Finally the idea that my car as it now is isn't invited to where she wants to go is silly. Seeing the tears in Nino's eyes is quite enough for me...

 

Read it and weep (with laughter !)
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