The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Yeah, sing on brother, play on drummer.

From if six turned out to be nine...

 

(Yet Horsefly carefully notes a "no answer" to an all important question:
What did the bill of shipping say on it: "P4 #0846" or "Ferrari parts"?)

 

Arlie
Once again you are wrong. As I posted LONG ago ALL Documents provided by David and his Lawyers described the car EXACTLY the same way. I also posted a copy of the Certificate of Origin and stated that the stamped and notorized Bill of Sale described the car exactly the same way. As it would be a criminal act for David and his lawyers to have knowingly provided documents that were untrue I'm sure at the time they believed their description was correct. Once again your Gobell's like restating of bull**** dosen't make it true.

 

Arlie

You are a pretty funny guy sometimes but this is getting to be a bit much. If you have some legitimate point about 0846 then feel free to post it but I have had enough of you just trying to piss in Jim's Cheerios. If you make any more posts in this thread that are just for the sake of harassing JG I will delete them ASAP. If it happens more than once I will ban you for a while. If you have any questions PM me.

 

Mark, before you get all wrapped up in a "shoot the messenger" mood, I think that some here on this thread just don't get it themselves. YOU perceive my questions to be "harassment". This line of thinking is the very reason that MANY will not post on this thread because, as Tillman said on the Third posting of this thread: " Why bother? If you express the wrong opinion you get banned from the site."..Looks like he was right on target. I get e-mail on a daily basis concerning this 0846 topic. Most of the people that e-mail to me won't bother posting because they know that the end result will be as you threatened: a ban. If any of my postings are banned or deleted, I will retain a copy so that I can e-mail them to Rob and see if he agrees with any "deletions" or "banning". Notice that none of my postings contain profanity, accusations, etc. Just assorted discussions concerning numerous possibilities....the very possibilities that I've received numerous e-mails about during the ongoing 0846 debate. If F-chat is to retain its credibility among the Ferrari world, we need less threats of deletions and banning and more toleration of discussion. Sometimes that discussion doesn't praise or accept the viewpoints of certain people, but so be it.

Sincerely, Horsefly. (retaining all postings in case Rob needs to rule on anything)

 

If you want to PM me your number we can have a three way call with Rob, don't worry I won't call you collect. If Rob thinks you are making valuable contributions then fine.

I think this thread is a great example of how open to debate things are at FC..... 27 pages of people expressing quite a few varying opinions and occasionally mixing a fact or two in. But I don't think FC gains any credibility by allowing a guy in Arkansas to harass a guy in New York whether he has paid the proper taxes on his car and what the taxes might be if he brought it to another state.

Heck, what if he mounted pontoons on the P4 and called it a yacht? Would he be able to get a boat registration for it as 0846? Who even cares?

BTW That's your one, PM me if you have any more questions.

 

There has only been one banning regarding 0846 ... and that was for a very short time. Rob then asked us all to shut up until the magazine article was published.

This constant BS about you cannot dispute a Ferrari's heritage is rediculous. Come on mate drop this angle and get back to the game.

Now as for your question regarding the shipping/sales bills ... have a look at my post about the status of play (Summary)... you will see clearly that Piper sold the car as #0003, which is what he refered to the car as. Nobody is disputing that, what we are saying is that #0003 was made out of the repaired #0846 chassis ... thus was really #0846 all along.

BTW: Regarding you tax statement, especially import tax. The discovering of the car being worth much more than was paid could cause you grief in Australia. But I think if you honestly thought it was a replica at the time and only discovered afterwards that it wasn't ... then so be it. But if you pretended it was a replica that would be a different story. I know this because I just imported my Alfa into Australia and yes they looked at the purchase price, but they also took into account what it would be worth when restored ... which quite honestly is a bit on the nose, after all you might drop dead before the car's restoration is completed. But that is Australia for you ... ie. fnck them before they fnck you is the attitude over here

Pete

 

Two, actually. One was banned for a month. The second was also banned for a month while discussing an unrelated P4 replica, but Rob reversed his decision after a bit of an outcry.

Regarding my post #3, I have yet to make a decision on the car (not that my opinion matters at all), but I did disagree with certain moderating decisions. Rob and I discussed the matter privately, and we now understand each other's viewpoints.

 

Two other forums, Wayne ? Well, I know one of them was the Nostalgia Forum on Atlas F1 ('cos I was involved in discussions in that one too) .... But what's the other forum, Wayne ? Surely you don't mean 'Ferrari-Talk' do you ? That's hardly worth bothering with - there's no 'heated discussions' going on in there. Or did I miss something ?

 

You mean you forgot, Wayne ?
http://www.*****************/discus/messages/31/2958.html?1087692438
You (or someone purporting to be Wayne Ausbrooks) posted to it on May 2nd !
O.K I give up ! ***************** obviously doesn't wish to be linked to FerrariChat. LOL.

The thread ID is: discus/messages/31/2958.html?1087692438 - or get there whichever way you can.
It's under 'Restoration Projects' - P4. Nobody's missed anything. Just more of the same !

This is REALLY weird. It won't let me type Ferrari (Hyphen) Talk Dot Com. I must be going loopy ! Nope !

Really ??
Could this be the same group that, I believe, initially stated:
"This car is too insignificant to even warrant discussion" ?

 

You mean you forgot, Wayne ?
http://www.*****************/discus/messages/31/2958.html?1087692438
You (or someone purporting to be Wayne Ausbrooks) posted to it on May 2nd !
O.K I give up ! ***************** obviously doesn't wish to be linked to FerrariChat. LOL.

The thread ID is: discus/messages/31/2958.html?1087692438 - or get there whichever way you can.
It's under 'Restoration Projects' - P4. Nobody's missed anything. Just more of the same !

This is REALLY weird. It won't let me type Ferrari (Hyphen) Talk Dot Com. I must be going loopy ! Nope !

Really ??
Could this be the same group that, I believe, initially stated:
"This car is too insignificant to even warrant discussion" ?

 

That desert highway must be getting pretty dark by now !
I'm outa here too, before Pete (PSk) wakes up. See ya !

 

Jim,
This is what I understood - that the right hand side and especially the right rear took the hit. But didn't an earlier post talk about WS repairing the left hand side chassis? So which side did Sparling repair?
Nathan

 

Getting back to stuff related to old racing cars and their history.............

At Goodwood last weekend I bought some more old Autosports to fill in gaps in my collection, including the one with the Targa Florio 1967 race report.

It reports how Vaccarella slid wide into a low wall on a left-hand hairpin on lap two, in Collesano village where the locals were cheering loudly for their local hero; the reactions of the people there were 1) stunned silence, 2) lots of people rushing forward to help push/drag the car out of the way, 3) grabbing every bit of wreckage they could, including all the bits of the broken right-hand wheels!

So when you go to Sicily, Jim, see if you can find anybody who still has a piece! (and if you should happen to be near Le Mans and drive along the bit of road between the Esses and Tertre Rouge you could look for the head of Chris Amon's hammer too..................)

This was in post #469 of the poll thread; anybody got that particular Cavallino and can quote what was said?

"Has anyone here noted the comments by Mr. J.L. Hevia late of Miami in Cavallino issue #78 of December 1993? He had the chance to view 0846 up close and take some pictures of the Ferrari in 1967. Perhaps there is more information to be found with him.
ch"

There are also some reference in the Cavallino index to articles or notes on the P4 in old issues that I don't have and can't get hold of. Does anyone else have this information?


Paul M

 

Hi
Bit of a dust up you guys in period dress had last weekend.

There are 3 known incidents that befell 0846. Bandini's flip at the Targa in 66. Vaccarella's slide/crash at the Targa in 67. Amon's fire at Le Mans in 67.

Bandini's flip likely torqued the chassis. The chassis in my car is torqued/twisted. It can only be made straight by shimming.

Vaccarella hit the right side hard into a high curb at an angle directing most of the force to the rear of the right rear wheel breaking the wheel and the A arm at the rear. The force travelled across the rear chassis transverse which is very strong, which acted as a lever and bent/bowed out the two longest left side angled back to front chassis tubes at their weakest point outwards. The welds on each end of these tubes have never been redone and are consistant with the welds in 80% of the rest of the chassis. The outwards bow in the center of both tubes are still visable and the tubes were heated bent, back, and braised "repaired with a trackside torch".

The photo (BBC TV) and discription (Ferrari Records) of the Amon fire clearly show what chassis tubes were likely destroyed and on my chassis these tubes have been replaced by tubes that are 30 thousands of an inch different in size. Perfectly straight and the welds on this section of my chassis were done at at different time with different techniques than the other approx. 80% of my chassis.

That coupled with the unique construction of my chassis and the fact that while 0900 and 0900a are built to "1967 P4 Chassis Blueprints" and my chassis is built to P3 Blueprints and modified EXACTLY as described in "Ferrari's Technical Build Sheets P3/P4 0846" are some of the reasons that I and others feel that my chassis contains between 80 and 90% of the remains of 0846.

When Mr.Vaccarella is reunited with my car next June perhaps he'll remember a thing or two.

Best

 

Hello Macca
Have checked #78 p.4 - Mr Hevia worked the Alitalia freight flights and was there when the factory cars returned to Milan Malpensa. He took some photos and two are in the magazine. One shows the car on the loading lift, and the other shows (for some unknown reason) a detail photo of the right rear suspension taken from below. Both photos are poor quality.
I have every issue of Cavallino from #1 to date, and there are notes on P4s in other issues but nothing on 0846 specifically.
Nathan

 

I would assume that the invoice and bill of lading both show Ferrari P4 003, with the price Jim paid for the car. Am I mistaken?

The brochure Jim did doesn't show these documents, only the certificate of origin. (Not that it's anyone's business what Jim paid)

I worked for a customs broker in the Chicago area (J.E.Bernard), during my college years. Unless customs suspects fraud or something of that order, they will accept the documents presented, and duty is paid on the value declaired on the invoice.

 

That is correct. The bill of lading and invoice, as I've said several times describe the car EXACTLY as it is described in the COO.

 

Hopefully, that will end all the nonsense about taxes and duties....but I doubt it....

I prefer to see evidence, rather than nonsense and drivel...