McLaren Depreciation 12-C: a nightmare- werewolf?

BTW, I don't get when people say the McLaren is a high-volume car. Ferrari makes more 458s every year than McLaren has made of 12Cs ever. They've just now hit 3,000 cars which is a pretty good milestone for them. Ferrari makes more than 3,000 458s a year.

I own both cars and I hate the bashing and misinformation spreading for either of them.

I love them both.

McLaren deserves a hell of a lot of respect. Thing how clunky Ferrari's cars were when they were at McLaren's stage of growth. Let's cheer them on and we'll get even better cars from both manufacturers.

Also this "they shouldn't be going up against Ferrari" is complete lunacy. Of course they should. It's what they do and they do it very well judging by my cars at least.

 

Another thing while I'm having a rant... Depreciation is not the only measure of a car. A car with a smaller potential market is going to depreciate.

Ferrari had made lots of heavily-depreciated cars over the years. It just so happens that the 458 hasn't been one of them YET. Just wait. They've made a hell of a lot of them. When the replacement comes so will the depreciation. When the hybrid model comes (based on LaFerrari as the prototype the way the Enzo acted as a prototype for the 458) the depreciation will really come. If you're scared of depreciation then I suggest you get out now before it is too late.

If you're not scared of depreciation then you're probably really enjoying what a fine car you have and I salute you. Maybe you're the kind of person who buys a fine wine to age it and then drinks it rather than selling it at auction. These cars, like that fine wine, are made to be appreciated. The only way to truly appreciate them is to drive them.

From what I hear on these forums it sounds like a lot of the McLaren owners are really driving, and therefore appreciating, them on a regular basis. A lot of Ferrari owners are letting theirs sit in the garage and driving them only on special occasions for fear of putting too many miles on them.

I look at it this way: If you bought a McLaren, put 25,000 miles on it, and lost $100k then you've basically spent $4 per mile. That's the same to me as buying a Ferrari, putting 10,000 miles on it and losing $40,000. But a Ferrari 458 with 10,000 miles will depreciate a lot more than $40,000.

So let's stop talking about depreciation and lets start talking about appreciation (as in ENJOYMENT) and let's stop beating each other up over our car choices. Nobody is a suckerfor having a great car that they love. The suckers are the guys who have the great cars and can't enjoy them because they can't over what every mile or scratch s going to cost them. They'd be happier in less-expensive cars they can afford to drive or scratch and there are lots of great cars to choose from.

 

So to appreciate you must depreciate...?

SV

 

Very good points MarkNC.

Unfortunately I was just offered a 12C with 300 miles on it for $190K. If I wait a week it will likely be down to $185K. A loss of $95K for the original owner.

That poor sap paid $316 per mile.

But as mentioned before, it happens with many exotic and non exotic cars.

BMW M5s drop 50% in no time, E63 AMG, and on and on....

I'm being offered 2 different Lambo LP570 2011 and 2012 models at $100K off what the first owner paid.

I am definitely a price sensitive buyer. I know for the loss of 100K in a year I can have a free GTR PLUS the car that I was originally going to buy with only 1200 miles on it. Seems a no brainer for most folks.

I can buy a 430 Scud, LP560/570, etc and wouldn't expect more than 10% depreciation per year going forward.

I missed out on buying a Ford GT which would be up about $100K by now.

 

It's been a few months since I sold mine, and I'm still butthurt...

 

Absolutely +1.
They are doing a great Job.
I have to say they sacked the best employees/engineers in europe to arrange the company
and from Italy as well. Same collegues of mine and from Ferrari too.

Luque

 

That's your opinion but Kinetic H2 System from Tenneco is basically available on the Market from years and the MP4-12C is the only application in supersport car market.

Porsche Ferrari and all sport car makers tested the system but simply rejected the solution.
In tricky situation static roll cannot be controlled properly and in fact the MP4-12C is a bit harder to drive without electronics aids.

Much more interesting is the Kinetic RFS System that consist in splitting the roll stabiliser bars using a device incorporating double acting hydraulic cylinders.
The Porsche 991 has a similar system that works great, roll almost zero and great confort.
Porsche 911 Carrera S - 2012 Motor Trend Best Driver's Car - Motor Trend
Interesting that MT mention the 458 as a benchmark about the confort and not the MP4-12c tested in the same edition of the 2012 Motor Trend Best Driver's Car

Luque

 

Disagree. McLaren is doing fine. McLaren Automotive is expected to break even this year which is pretty impressive for a company so early into its plan.

See McLaren drives down losses and expects to break even this year | Business | theguardian.com

Many car companies improve their new models in the first few years (including Ferrari) and some pass down the fixes under warranty campaigns (especially safety and reliability issues) but McLaren has passed down driving and performance improvements at no-charge to existing customers. This is something that Ferrari owners should ADMIRE about McLaren. My 2013 458 Spider is a more solid driving car than my 2010 458 Italia was and that's despite it being a spider. Ferrari made improvements to the car from 2010 to 2013. McLaren does the same thing but they passed along those improvements to their customers for free.

None of what you've said here is true. McLaren will sell every P1 they had planned to make and Ferrari will sell every LaFerrari they had planned to make. Neither have announced Nurburgring times. All three will be amazing cars. There's no question the ring time helps the image of the cars - especially Porsche who have planned to make 918s than the other two models put together - but the market will be strong for P1 and LaFerrari regardless of where they end up with respect to ring times.

Well their investors obviously disagree with you because they just recently doubled down and converted debt to equity which puts the company in an even better financial position going forward.

 

I think there's some Mac Kool aid being served here...

Tastes like Ron.

 

I think so. I'm sure some people can enjoy just looking at the car sparkling clean in their garage but I enjoy it more from the driver's seat while in motion or that backward glance in some parking lot after a satisfying drive somewhere. Or, even better yet, looking at it in the paddock at the race track after several laps around the track! I love taking it to the track and getting it dirty!

Ok, enough typing for me this morning. I'm going to go for a drive in one of my depreciating supercars!

 

I think ferrari only makes 3000 ferraris in a year, not 458's. so 3000 between all of their cars.

 

I don't drink cool-aid Mayor but I do admit to being an optimist More importantly, because I own both, I feel the need to be realistic about the pros and cons of both cars. For example, I'm totally with you when you complain about the AC in the 458 Spider - it sucks. You can't get the air to blow on your face. That's just one of the small negatives of the 458. There are plenty of positives too. BTW, 12C has a great AC system although, like the Ferrari, it is too loud at full blow. The AC in the FF is much better than the one in the 458. However with the roof closed I don't have any significant issues with the AC in the 458 but I live in North Carolina, not in Nevada. It gets pretty hot here but not as crazy as what you get.

Time spent owning both cars has given me a much greater understanding of (and appreciation for) McLaren, its products and its future. I also have an appreciation for Ferrari and its products. When people say overly harsh things about one or the other I like to jump in and bring them back around to reality. If I had taken to heart what the online naysayers say about the 12C I would have missed out on an amazing experience. Ferrari has been around a lot longer than McLaren and has a LOT more fans and a much larger market. They can overpower a small brand like McLaren with unfounded negativity. I just want to make sure somebody who knows both vehicles can bring the rhetoric back down to earth.

 

Ferrari made 7,318 cars in 2012, 7,195 in 2011, 6,573 in 2010. The say they will limit production in 2013 to "under 7,000 cars".

Based on what I saw at the factory I think that roughly half of these were 458s. So my guess is they've probably produced around 13,000 458s by now and have orders for several thousand on top of that. That's still incredibly exclusive!

My guess for the decrease is a combination of retooling to produce a new/updated model combined with increased profit margins for the LaFerrari and 458 Speciale that will produce higher overall profits out of fewer cars. These guys are really smart!

See:

http://www.ferrari.com/english/about_ferrari/corporate/Pages/2012-financial-results-reveal-best-year-in-ferrari-history.aspx

http://www.ferrari.com/English/about_ferrari/Corporate/Pages/120217_COR_record-results-for-ferrari-in-2011.aspx

http://www.ferrari.com/English/about_ferrari/Corporate/Pages/110210_COR_2010_an_exceptional_year_for_Ferrari.aspx

Ferrari tries to cut car sales to protect brand exclusivity - Telegraph

 

Marc, it is nice if you can afford to own all these beautiful cars at the same time and you do not have to decide for only one of them.

But there are people who can only afford one of them in several years. When they decide at this time for a Ferrari then the McLaren is "the looser", and the other way around.

And exactly this is keeping the discussion exciting and emotional.

 

Coupe. At another f dealer which I had not purchased a car from before, I was offered the opportunity to put down a deposit for a coupe or spider for next spring/early summer delivery. PM me if you want more details. I held off on the spider because my coupe was in the works and I already got one for my dad. I'm thinking speciale now. I saw the brochure of options. Looks like a fair number of options I like. Not to mention sound and performance...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

The comment about depreciation not being important is naive.

If depreciation is so high, then most people will do one of the following: (a) keep the car a lot longer, or (b) sell it, take the loss, and never touch that brand again.

Neither one of these outcomes is good for McLaren. Reasonable depreciation makes customers swap cars often and keep coming back. This is what makes Ferrari so profitable (and their dealers fat and happy, as well).

 

So why is Mercedes still making AMG cars? And why does BMW make 5/7 series etc? All of those depreciate hard yet it hasn't scared people off. Majority of supercar clients do not care about depreciation as it is insignificant to them. Europe Ferrari depreciation has been abysmal, 599 clients down close to 70% in some cases, 458 have taken hits too. US is where it is thanks to the tidal wave of liquidity the government has injected into the market and it is primarily showing up in stuff rich people own ie stocks, high end cars, high end properties. That doesn't last forever, I remember in late 08 you could offer 180k for almost brand new Scuderia's(40% loss less then 12months) and sellers were willing to part..... Ferrari is not immune too downturns.

 

Mercedes, BMW and similar cars are used as daily drivers and usually have MUCH higher usage and mileage and therefore the depreciation does not hurt as much

 

Marc, you make great points. The only thing I would say is McLaren absolutely wants to be that volume manufacturer- otherwise they wouldnt have built the factory. And to me that makes cars coming out of the factory volume built cars. The 12C is a great car but its also a volume produced car and if they could, they would make more.

I think depreciation is always a part of the equation. How much depends on each person.

 

Because of this:

 

This exact opposite is true. Majority of supercar clients do care about depreciation because they like to swap cars very often.

Europe is a special case because of the credit crunch and the other example you mentioned was during the crdit crunch in the US. Agree if there is a credit crunch, all bets are off. BUT, this does not affect Ferrari. Your rationale has no legs. FNA does a hell of a job managing supply and demand in the US and that's what makes the difference.

 

Bentley Mulsanne 4DR SDN | eBay

A Bentley Mulsanne with 2K miles selling for at least $80K under MSRP.

The predicted mileage is irrelevant. The point is that there are tons of cars which suffer huge depreciation even with low miles, and of which tons of great used examples exist for deep discounts, but that continue to sell new just fine.

Bentleys, RR, 991s, AMGs, etc depreciate hard regardless of miles, and there are tons of nice used ones for sale at any given time, but it isn't stopping people from buying new.

There really are that many non-enthusiast and/or very wealthy people who just don't care or aren't educated enough in the matter.

 

2 years ago I bought a 09 SL65 with 8k miles for 113k listed for 217k just over 100 were produced. Before that I bought a 06 SL65 2 years old in 08 for 63k. AMG Mercedes depreciate like rocks.

 

Always funny seeing these 12C threads, it makes grown men argue like school children.

 

Ya know that's really true. The 458 section actually gets very few new threads if you've noticed. What riles people up though is a good ol' fashion 12c thread.