Challenging gremlins - electrical/fuel???

I am frustrated and stuck and looking to my 308 Family. Here is my dilemma…

I have an 84 Euro 308 with Lambda. About 2 weeks ago after a 50 mile trip to my sister, I parked on the street "First time ever". 10 minutes later I pulled her into her garage. Went to a funeral. 4 days later I get in and noticed she seemed to crank a little faster. She started eventually but would not idle and ran very very rough. After moving wires and checking connections, I had her towed home. "My first thought was that she missed her home attached picture." After unloading her in my driveway, I thought I would nurse her in instead of pushing her uphill. She started perfect and idled perfect. "Evidently she likes being home as much as I do - yea her ego gets stroked with all the garage decor". I took her for a short 10 mile drive and no issues. The next day I took her on a 250 mile drive starting and stopping more than 10 times while working. Some stops were 5 minutes, others were hours. The last stop, as soon as I cranked her, I noticed the same faster crank feel. She did the exact same thing. I had to keep my foot on the pedal to nurse her home over 10 miles. “That was tough even with a functioning Ebrake”. Here is what I have done thinking it was electrical and maybe one bank running. Checked all connections with continuity from the digi boxes to all sensors like the Coils, TDC, RPM and such. I checked the coil wires and noticed one pretty corroded going to the front bank. I cleaned and repair it. I pulled all the plug wires and extenders looking for burn holes. "Replacing the extenders fixed the last issue I had two months back." None found. I removed the first plug from the front bank and the rear bank. After using a wire to ground the plug and using the extenders, I cranked her and noticed a clean spark on both banks that seemed to be on consistent opposite intervals.

I removed the air box and the air valve just below the box had good pressure holding it up suggesting fuel pressure was good. I removed the safety switch and heard the pump run with the ignition on. Pushed down a little on the valve and noticed what sounded like fuel going to the injectors. With the switch still off, I checked for power to the ECU and found it in two places (Thanks Steve for helping eliminate one more opportunity). I was told the next step is to work through installing a guage to check fuel pressure at the WUR.

Any other suggestions???
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I have been tinkering around today looking for solutions to my rough running with no idle. I cracked open the fuel line at the cold start and found pressure there. I then cracked open the fuel line at the WUR and had pressure there as well. I then noticed fuel residue on top of my rear valve cover. I moved the large hose connected to the butterfly assembly and had excessive fuel in the pendulm. I cleared all that fuel out and the vacuum lines that went to the WUR. After replacing all these peices, the car started but with aid from the gas pedal. It will not idle and is simiply missing out. Because I am getting fuel, this puts me back at an electrical problem? What about the AAV under the coolant tank? What about the O2 sensor in the exhaust? What about the WUR? I would certianly appreciate any advise that fellow troubleshooters may have for me. I have been reading all through the forum today which has gotten me this far. I am thinking of just replacing the plug wires even through when I put new plugs in today I tested each and got a spark. thanks so much for any suggestions...

 

Well another test baffles me. I called and talked with Larry at CIS flotec (definatly an expert in the k jet fuel system). He also strongly suggested it was electrical. I then took his advise and removed the coil wire on the front bank. The car started with only the rear bank plugged in but obviously ran rough and would not idle. I then put the coil wire back on the front coil and removed the coil wire from the rear bank. It ran the exact same? This tells me that I am getting fire to both banks. Now what??? Some more advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks....

 

Start at the beginning - check all the plug lead extenders. If you suspect any of them are burning through (its more difficult to tell on the black ones if you have those) then put some tape round them temporarily & see what happens.

If its not one or more of them then next remove the distributor caps. If you have any oil in there then you've got a bad camshaft oil seal (not expensive and easy to fix). Oil in the dizzy cap will cause misfires for obvious reasons.

Check the caps for cracks, the rotor arms & the plug leads for end to end continuity into the caps.

Once you've ruled that lot out (and tested the leads from the caps to the coils) then come back again & if its still rough we can look at some other ideas.

 

You might want to check your O2 protection relay which controls the frequency valve. This relay is a common failure and when it fails, your frequency valve will not operate properly and result in very rough idle and stumble. It is located in the rear trunk on the passenger side next to antenna, mounted on cover plate similar to the digiplexes on the driver side

 

Great suggestions. I'm working through all the electrical now. Thanks. More to come.

 

ding... ding... ding... this is my suspect... also check that you have a good connection to the relay as well. sometimes it can wiggle out of its mounting. I have mine ziptied in... if you hit some rough roads and or hot cold ....

the other suggestion is to look at connections on the fuse pannel... check your fuses - think you will have the ceramic type... there are two connectors Multi plug type tucked up behind the fuse pannel, and one major one for fuel pump in the floor board on the passengers side... but if its running - seems unlikely to be fuel pump... protection relay and fuse is the most likely culprit ... or you may have some cracked wires running under the rear trunk - they get very hot, cool, hot, cool..develop cracks...

for the AAV just jump the wires ( off the coolant tank) with a fuse and see if there is a difference.

 

any update on this?

 

I checked the relays and switched them around to like ones with no resolve. As far as the fuse box, I ordered the Birdman even before the car was delivered and after installation have had no issues there. I talked with Larry at CIS flowtech and we worked through some fuel pressure issues with some guages. We determined the WUR is not regulating the fuel pressure which is keeping too much pressure on the fuel/air metering plate under the air box which is causing the car to be very rich. We tested the fuel pump pressure and volume, both were fine. I took of the WUR and sent it to Larry for a rebuild. I am on blocks with the QV wheels off right now waiting for it to return. When I get it back and installed, I will definately update everyone.

On a side note, I am also waiting for my Compomotive lips and barrels to arrive next week so i can pull the QV wheels for that much anticipated 17" F40 wheel appearance. Funny, I had the QV wheels redone only a few months before finding the Comps. Oh well, someone will definitely get a set of virtually perfect QV wheels when I get all this sorted.

 

I meant to type that it is extremely lean, not rich with the WUR not regulating the fuel. Sorry.

 

Ditto the protection relay. I have gone through 3 of them in 25 years with the same car. Frequency valve should vibrate with engine running. My engine will barely idle if valve is not working and would barely hit 55 mph when it failed. I now carry a spare in my tool kit.

 

Update..

I received my WUR back from Larry at CIS Flowtech. He thoroughly cleaned it up and made it look like new. I put it in and the car started immediately and ran with no stumble or hesitation. Looks like my problem was solved. I cleaned her up and was ready for work the next day Friday. I took her out on Friday to work when about 5 miles from my house, I stopped at a light and she died. She started with help from the accelerator but would not idle. DAMN… I drove home and called Larry. He was super helpful. After some more diagnostics while in my work Suit, we came to the conclusion that she was running rich and the airflow metering plate on the fuel distributor was not positioned exactly in the center. Turns out there is a small pin that can be “slightly” tapped on to move the plate down as mine was too high. Well I tapped and it did not move, tapped a little harder and “DAMN THE LUCK” it pushed it too far. Now she would not start at all even trying to lean her out with the adjustment screw. You have to remove and split open the entire fuel distributor to fix this mistake, So I did…. The gasket was not friendly to remove by the way. Turns out this was a good thing because when I opened it up, here is what I saw… “CRAP”
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Because I did not want to wait for another gasket for the fuel distributor which is the same as an early model Porche (I did not write that down when Larry told me), I used Blue gasket sealant after a thorough cleaning inside and out. I put her all together and tried to start it up. She skipped along but needed the accelerator to start. I held the throttle open to about 2k rpm until she warmed up. Still would not idle so I got her running again and held the throttle open at about 1200 to 1300 rpm and proceeded to find the sweet spot with the mixture screw. After that I readjusted the idle screw in the throttle body until I found that sweet spot. I put her all back together and WOW what a difference. Blipping the throttle now results with the harmonious sound of a beautiful Nouvalari exhaust then right back to idle. Funny side effect was that now I no longer have a hard accelerator. Before the pedal was not smooth when applying pressure which I though was a linkage issue that I could not find. Moving the airflow metering plate to the center cleared up not only the pedal issue, but quicker response to my depressing of the pedal. WIN WIN… Today was a perfect day in Texas to test my accomplishments so I did just that and guess what, NOT A SINGLE ISSUE. She was definitely not (BORING) as other threads state. Problem solved.

 

Yeah, that's pretty corroded.

Larry rebuilt the K-Jet distributor and WUR for my R5 T2 and it runs great.

He certainly knows what he's doing!!!

 

Scott,

I am fiddling with my CIS distributor currently and am wondering a couple of things:
(a) Where is this pin you are talking about tapping? Can you circle/point to it in a picture? When removing/reinstalling my plate, I have to gently slide it around before tightening the center screw to make sure it's centered within the neck...

(b) Was your process for removing the distributor was to depressurize the fuel system, remove all the banjo bolts, then unbolt the upper section from the lower section?

My plunger is sticky, and I think that is the root of all my issues (boggy throttle response off the line, hard hot starts that require throttle to "catch" and keep alive for the first 20 seconds). I've done as much as I can without removing the distributor/body using carb cleaner and a long straw, but it's still not where I want it to be.