I was in Chicago. On the way home I told the stew it was my birthday and I wanted a free drink. She kept pouring and I kept drinking. By the time I got to SLC to change planes I was drunk.
It didn't supersede anything for the first 19 years I owned my 85 QV since it didn't exist. Dealers complain they can't make any money because no one is brings in their car for majors. Ferrari response by issuing a service bulletin so dealers can notify their clients and scare them into a $7-$10k service. Notice that bulletin came out about the time F355s were 6 to 9 years old and owners were balking at the cost of service.
Now that is just plain stupid, uninformed and devoid of logic. Terry, you ever see that sign that said "The finest pilots in the world pass through these gates" or something to that effect? Well this place should have a sign that says "The stupidest people in the world post here". Didn't take long for an idiot to show up.
"It didn't supersede anything for the first 19 years I owned my 85 QV since it didn't exist. " Hmmm... I find that an interesting point. For the years between the first 3x8's in the US and the time the bulletin was issued, were there routine problems with breaking belts when running the cars to the mileage stated in the owners manual? I didn't own a Ferrari back then but I read everything I could find about them at the time and I don't remember reading of any cam belt problems that seemed to indicate a need for more frequent replacement than whatever the US owners manuals stated at the time. So, IMO, that is a valid question - what caused Ferrari to change the recommendation when they did?
Really! After 19 years Ferrari suddenly changed the recommended service interval because of what, over those 19 years they were inundated with belt failures so, finally, in 2004 they thought they should change the recommended service interval? Cut me a break. I'd ask just who is devoid of logic here? I've owned my dam car for 28 years. I know how long belts, cam seals and tensioner bearing last. And I know that every 3 years is way over servicing these cars unless, perhaps, they are driven the way many FChatters seem to think they should be driven, thinking red line is a shift point.
"unless, perhaps, they are driven the way many FChatters seem to think they should be driven, thinking red line is a shift point." It's not a shift point? DANG! Oh...I don't use that anyway, I use my 328's rev limiter!
Forgetting for the moment the balance of the drivel in your post on this one point alone you incorrectly presuppose that was the only service bulletin on the subject. It was just the last. So much for uninformed.
Last year I changed my belts. I can't wait to change them again. Changing belts is fun! Everybody should try this, the ultimate Ferrari experience.
I have to wonder the conversations that took place between Dayco and Ferrari regarding Dayco's belts. I know if you talk to a Dayco rep, they will tell you the sun sets and rises over their belts, but I guarantee they won't replace an engine if a belt breaks. However, if Ferrari sells you a Dayco belt and it breaks, you better believe Ferrari are going to make good as they have on the past.
I got so tired of changing my belts that I switched to Sansabelt. I wear them 3 inches too short and with a wicked camel toe.
So how come BMW and others have always stated that belts should be changed every 36,000 miles or 3 years? Since '87 I've owned BMW's, the first one being a 1980 E12 5 series, and until BMW went to chains, the official recommendation for cambelt replacement was always 36K miles/3 years! (As stated in the E12's owners manual and all the owners manuals for the other models that had cambelts). Desperate for cash? - I don't think so! - there's not that much profit in a cambelt change for them. A more convoluted belt path than on a Ferrari V8, putting more strain on the belt? - Do me a favour! I asked the service manager at My BMW Dealership once why the belt could only last 36K miles or 3 years and was told: "They could last longer than that but BMW have decided to change them at 36K miles/3 years to guarantee that they won't fail and cause severe engine damage. Think of it as an insurance policy for the engine!" That has always stuck in My mind!
Inform me. When did these other bulletins come out? How may years after introduction of the 308 engine? The GT4 came out in 73 with belts so in 85 that's 12 years after the introduction of the 308 engine and they still recommending first change at 25k miles in the owners manual and 12.5k miles there after, no mention of time. I'm a show me don't tell me kind of guy. Why are there all these cars around that have 5 to 6 or more years on the belts w/o failure? Since it applies to all V8s how is it that there are so many 355s running around with 5, 6 or more years on the belts without failures?
Yes, my E30 when 7 years and 105k miles before the water pump went. Belt was also changed "while in there". Why did BMW say 3 years? (Actually, I don't recall the manual ever stating 3 years.) Also, when I took my 328is in for service BMW told me the serpentine belt was cracked and should be replaced. That was 14 years ago and it still has the OEM belt on it. Why would BMW tell me it was falling apart after 20k miles as they did? Why does my wife's 99 Honda with 99k miles on it still run fine with the original belt? These things can not be explained in the rational world. Why did the recommendation for oil changes become every 3k miles when Jiffy Lub opened? A BMW oil service light never comes on after only 3k miles. Why does Apple bring out a new iPhone every year?
Brian has rebuilt more of these engines due to belt failures and probably forgotten more ferrari knowledge than I will ever know, and I'd like to think I know a thing or three about these motors having had my hands in a good few of them now. One may infer the reason for the change is that Ferrari had been seeing too many engines they had to essentially eat costs due to a belt failure that occurred beyond the 3 years. A decision such as this will not take place overnight as appropriate data had to be acquired and thoroughly reviewed, and said data would take quite some time to accrue due to the nature of the issue. The general '3 year' rule they set means 3 years for Brian in Sunny California and 3 years in frozen northern Finland, 3 years for the old lady driving it to church and 3 years for Gianfranco who drives the autostrada at 130mph daily, meaning a ferrari had to account for all possible conditions to which these belts might be subjected so they weren't constantly buying motors. It's not a overly big job and they are easily done on their own for less then a couple K. It's a no brainer IMO. I run higher valve spring tension and drive the bejeezuz out of my car and will surely replace them probably ever other year just to be on the safe side.
Brian knows what he is talking about. His reputation here as THE mechanical expert is without question. Any response to challenge will not change your mind about your car nor ours about his professional opinion. You are free to leave your belts on as long as you want to - and you should, it's your car right? So just leave them alone and pay no attention to the rest of us that follow a more disciplined approach to the maintenance of our belt driven Ferraris based on his advice had the advice of the factory.
I am probably a fool to jump into this but my 2 cents I spent most of my career working on aviation life and usage monitoring and time based verses condition based maintenance practices. I find it hard to believe Ferrari engineering would issue a service bulletin just for nefarious financial reasons. It is more probable that in service data is the source of the update. Lifeing of parts is a complicated process that usually uses worst case load factors as a starting point with in-service data used to update the retirement time. These updates happen all the time in the aviation world. If you were to receive a service bulletin on your private airplane telling you to inspect or replace a part sooner would you ignore it because you think someone is trying to make a buck? The wide scatter in data would not surprise me if some parts can go way over the retirement time. I know this is only a belt on an old car, not the rotor hub on a helicopter, but the science behind time based maintenance is the same. It is all statistics. Now condition based maintenance; that is a different thing. This is the area I am really interested in. I have some crazy ideas and some experiments I am performing on my old car. I will post more on that later
There seems to be an assumption that all belts since these engines were designed have been the same. This is likely not so. They have likely gone through several manufacturers, maybe had sub-standard batches of belts which showed failures at some point in the engines history. This is the likely explanation of the changes in factory recommendations. We simply dont know what the life of the belts which are available right now is, so there is no correct answer.
Let me respond. First, absolutely do as you feel best. Second, as many of you may know since I have stated it several time in the past, I bought my car in 85 new. And I have already pointed out that the 308 engine came on the market with belts in 73 with the GT4. In 85 Ferrari was stating 25k miles for the first belt change, 12.5k there after for the 308 with no mention of time. Brian posted the TB from 2004 which is not new to me. He stated there were others, I guess some where between 85 and 2004. However, as I also own a 95 F355 I know that in 1995 Ferrari was stating change F355 belts every 30k miles with no time limit in the manual. In the 97 manual that the recommendation is 30k miles or 3 years. The change probably took place with the introduction of the M5.2 version in 1996. So it appears that from 73 to 96 there were no recommendations of 3 year changes. Of course dealers were constantly trying to sell belt changes. Before I stopped taking my car to the dealer for service they were touting a 2 year cycle. If you don't think dealers try to sell you on things you don't need...think again. Further, I have experienced a belt failure on my 308, back in 2010. I won't say how old the belts were other than to say significantly more than 3 years. So you would think I would be very pro frequent belt changes and certainly abide by the Ferrari recommendation. Except for one thing. In my case there was clear evidence that the belt failure was not related to belt age or any other mechanical issue. It was due to some type of foreign object getting tin the belt path. Let's just say when you take you car out of winter storage check the belt area for critters, or rather what they leave behind. Of course, after such an occurrence I was initially concerned that the failure was due to my neglect until the evidence was shown to me. That lead to a discussion with my tech, who is factory trained and has been in the business of servicing Ferraris for well over 30 years, working for a Ferrari dealership prior to that. He indicated that the primary reasons for belt failures were, in no particular order, improper installation, over tensioning, cam seizure, tensioner/pulley failure and contamination. I'll also point out that if you read the F355 section you would probably find that most F355 owners consider 5-7 years a suitable interval between belt changes, despite Ferraris recommendation. Certainly this is motivated by the expense of an engine drop for belt replacement, but if belts were failing wholesale after 3 years you can bet that 355 owners would not be pushing the envelope. There is a lot more to loose with a 355 than a 308. In my case my 308 suffered only a pair of bent intake and a pair of bent exhaust valves. And the valves were bent so slightly that they had to be put in a drill and rotated to see the bend. There was barely a mark in the pistons. You would think the damage would have been more severe since the car didn't even stop running until I shut it off. I initially thought it lost a Digiplex. Anyway, as I said, that was back in 2010 so my belts are now 3 years old and I can assure you, even after my misadventure I have no intent of changing belts any time soon. You should all do as you feel is right. Image Unavailable, Please Login
You sir and argumentative as shole s like you are the reason there is nearly no professional participation left here and the reason so many are inclined to say there is no intelligent life on the internet. Your comical first post started off the conversation by insulting the entire Ferrari related portion of the auto industry and suggested a global timing belt conspiracy. Are you by any chance under a doctors care? Do you see black helicopters hovering nearby? Your failure to apply logic to the entirety of the topic is evident. Many here have obviously given it some thought. Maybe you should too. This post shows a total lack of knowledge of the history of suggested service of the belts but also a failure to understand what part belt age played in the failure on your own car. BTW I am incapable of posting any attachments so it was not me who posted the TSB as if facts ever stand in your way. You claim knowledge of the history of Ferrari's service recommendations, the conspiracy behind them and the state of the work load in the dealer network yet with every post you show a greater and greater misunderstanding of all. The old saying says "when in a hole....quit digging". You are free to believe in the Easter bunny for all I care and by all means please continue to go on existing in your fact and logic free zone.
Yep. FChat has become like a Kardashian. Sometimes entertaining to watch the train wreck, but pretty much useless otherwise.
If people want to run risks with their belts, that's up to them - just don't ever advise anyone else to do the same! Still reckon the tensioners are as much of a reason to have the belts off regularly as anything. While there is no service interval on them, we all know they go bad sooner or later (especially the OEM ones).
Geese Brian, I didn't call you names, launch insults at you, and generally attempt to discredit you because we have a difference of opinion. I just related a story and would ask for further documentation of the claimed changes to belt service intervals given that all the Ferrari documentation I pointed to states exactly what I said and as can easily be verified by down loading the manuals from the internet, as does my 1989 issue of the 3x8 workshop manual. Your rebuttal was nothing but verbal insults. Look at the first few posts to this thread, belts 5y 2m, 6y, 9y, 3y, 5y,...by the book... and as you page on you see more 7y, 9y... 12y... 15y!!! Where are all the broken belts due to age? It appears that the only one who has reported a belt failure here is me. And as I reiterate, it was not an age related failure, though you seem to want to imply that it was in spite of the fact that you have zero first hand knowledge of the failure mechanism. The evidence in this thread suggests, or perhaps even documents, that 3y seems to be more than a bit of over kill. What ever reason Ferrari had for issuing SB on belt change frequency the evidence presented right here in this thread is clearly contradictory. See Brian, no insults, no personal attacks, just relating the facts presented right here in this thread and in the documents I references.
