McLaren Depreciation 12-C: a nightmare- werewolf?

McLaren dealers in the USA have not asked buyers to pay any premium as far as I'm aware. I was first interested in the 12C Spider last summer but, because I bought an FF, I was able to get my 458 Spider (at MSRP) about the same time as the very first 12C Spiders were arriving in the USA. But even back then I could have ordered one of the earliest 12C Spiders and gotten one at list price.

Then a year later, as I fell in love with the idea of buying a P1, my interested in the 12C was sparked again and finally I drove the 12C Spider, fell in love with it, and bought it. It was a brand new car on a dealer lot and I was able to get it at MSRP. Because McLaren isn't as well known as Ferraris the dealers tend to order the cars to a spec they think they can sell and then they can have car in inventory for folks like me who drive one an realize they need one right now. Obviously Ferrari can't work this way because they can't keep up with demand in the first place. I think one day McLaren might have this same problem but luckily they don't have it now. So I ended up with a Spider in the 7th month they were available in the USA just by walking in and buying one.

As for value, I agree that they represent decent value, especially if you're not able (or willing) to get on a waiting list for a 458 Spider and you want a car now. If you have to buy a slightly used 458 Spider you're going to be paying $50k more for your car. You'll probably never get that back. The dealer who sold me my 458 Spider acknowledged that the car does depreciate but it depreciates from the premium price it commands when young and used, rather than from MSRP like most cars

 

Being able to walk into a dealer and order your car at MSRP and get it ASAP is pretty valuable if you ask me.

Why wait up to 2 years for a 458? Not only is it a waste of time, you also lose that new ferrari premium. If you order one today, the car will already be depreciating significantly by the time you get it in my opinion, just like buying a coupe today.

 

You can walk into a Ferrari dealer and get your car, such as a 458 spider, at MSRP...just have to buy other cars first and ASAP you will be put on the spider list. lol.

 

Fair enough but what was the in and out delta on the 3 cars you bought and sold while waiting? I think it's only fair to include that as part of the cost of enjoying the car(s) you want and for me there is a premium to pay extra for the car I really want right now. Now I waited and did not pay MSRP, but am sure I am getting hit hard on depreciation, esp since I have already put over 5200 miles on my car.

 

I've been doing a huge amount of reading in the last two weeks as I considered buying a P1 or 918. I was concerned about depreciation and it is probable that in a couple years there will be much of it on both cars. On those high tags a 30%+ cut is a lot of money for most people to lose in 2 or 3 years.

You will also lose money on most of these exotics no matter what brand you get whether new or even a few years old. I bought my F430 in '07 at the peak market for 354k out the door with tax. Today that car is worth maybe 160k give or take at retail. Call that a 200k hit in 6 years. The car has 6000 miles on it. That is 33k in depreciation per year. A cost of $2750/month. It's also about $33/mile. I think I could have rented an F430 on the days I drove it for far less than it cost me to own it! Anyway the enjoyment I got out of it was well worth it and I would not change a thing even if I could.

So I've learned very quickly this is the price one has to pay to play. Sure you can try and minimize it if you purchase a car a few years old and wait for the depreciation curve to smooth out but you will still pay to play. Only question is what price you put on your enjoyment because there will be a price.

I am now pretty sure the 918 and P1 are off the table. Losing 250k to 400k+ on those cars in 2 or 3 years isn't worth the enjoyment from the few times I would drive them each season. For others who can drive them more or have way more disposable income it's an easier decision I suppose. I'll wait a few years and pick one up once they start to level off. In the meantime it's time to upgrade to a 458 Spyder or F12. I'm on the list to order one of my choice and I know when it's time to move onto the next one I'll be taking a hit but the enjoyment will be worth it.

 

Hopefully next year they will hover around base 911 Turbo prices. Been thinking about a 991 TT, but will definitely go with an 12-C if the prices are comparable.

 

F430 I'd be surprised if you saw 30-40‰ depreciation on the p1 or 918. You can't really compare the limited production cars to ones like the 430. But what do I know, it just doesn't seem logical to me.

 

What is the point of the 458 sounding better than the 12C now? I like the sound of the 458 better, but if it does not beat the 12C in performance, it's like being a loudmouth starting a fight then getting your ass kicked. You should not open your mouth if you cannot back it up.
I want to see the Aventador take a nose dive in a couple years That should be interesting...

 

Spoken like a computer geek -- completely digital. Only numbers matter.


It's not how fast you go that matters. It's how you feel when going fast that matters.

 

GTR is a very fast car. That does not mean it is more fun to own than a 458.

Fun to own is subjective. some like vanilla, some like chocolate. carpe diem.

 

I get it. It's the "visceral", "intangible", "je ne sais quoi" etc.

Anyway, I was watching a video from the McLaren factory and a designer there said something that resonated with me. A cheetah is a beautiful animal because it is "an optimized design for what works and therein lies the beauty" ahhh, u made me go find it now here u go How to Build a Supercar "MP4-12C" - YouTube

I could see a similar comparison to apple products.

But my point is actually still valid even if you want to talk about feelings. People certainly feel a little bit less of the "going fast" as you eloquently put it when you know the car next to you IS in fact faster. You wonder how it must feel in the other car and that takes away from YOUR "feeling".

 

At the risk of perpetuating this never ending thread, the steering and handling is one of the best aspects of the 12c. Current Ferraris seem to have over boosted steering. Yes, Ferrari transmissions are better. The fundamental handling difference is the 12c use of brake steer and an open differential versus Ferrari's e-diff.

These threads always seem to devolve. Debates never seem to discuss implications of technology choices on driving...

 

Well I own a 12C, an F12, a California, and recently a 458 spider. And have tracked them all except the F12. And used to race. So at least I am speaking from first hand experience.

"most sports car drivers..." Sigh. Describing it the 3rd party doesn't make it any less your personal feeling.

 

I can see the Apple connection.

Cold, and clinical. Our way or no way. Good because we tell you it's good. Digital instead of analog.

Almost every reviewer who has driven both cars say the Mac may be faster but the 458 is the car they would want to own.

Having driven both, I agree. Both these cars are fast as heck. Too fast in fact to really enjoy on city streets.

What matters to me is the experience I get when driving them, not what appears on a clock on a track. That I leave for Jenson Button.

And I would say the exact thing if the 458 had the better numbers.

 

I don't disagree with the subjective reasons to own. Sometimes you don't want to think about the technical aspects of a car and driving. Sometimes just want to feel self satisfied when tooling around town (not a knock on anyone, just being honest with myself!). This is of course different for all of us.

Indeed, if I could only have *one* car, it would be the F12. An awesome drive, yet so usable.

If the 458 spider had steering like the F12 AND a stiffer chassis then it might be it. I especially like driving with the everything closed except the rear window. All the noise and none of the wind.

 

Correct. You buy any of these cars because of how they make you feel- which is entirely subjective. Once you eliminate that, you are left with basic A-B transportation and for that purpose any of these cars are completely absurd. So are luxury cars. The rest is trying to justify your point of view.

 

I am 100% on board with picking the car you personally like, but IMO there's an awful lot of reliance on what others like in choosing between these cars:

"Almost every reviewer who has driven both cars say the Mac may be faster but the 458 is the car they would want to own"

"It has been reported that driver inputs on the 12-C are over boosted at speed. The feedback is off. The car has also been reported as nervous at the limit"

"The 12-C's ride is considered disconnected and the steering and handling characteristics over boosted as speed increases. For most, these are not positives attributes."

And WTF does "over boosted", "feedback" and "disconnected" mean? I guess I don't know how to drive well enough to appreciate the 458's overwhelming superiority.

As for steering, I understand that steering ratio on the 458 is 11.9:1, compared with 16.9:1 on the 430. I can't get the exact ratio on the MP4-12C, but it is 2.66 turns lock to lock, and the 458 is about 2 turns. I do know from driving both cars that the 458 steering is definitely quicker and as a result could be described as more "lively." Now the amount of power assist clearly varies and is electro-hydraulic at least on the 12C, so the cars feel different. When I drive, I determine grip from the way the car rotates as a function of steering input and adjust the latter accordingly. All power steering reduces the amount of force transmitted through the steering rack - try an Elise some time for 100% unassisted steering feel.

I can say that on the street, it is nearly impossible to use 100% of a car's grip, what with children, other cars, curbs, telephone poles, unexpected surface conditions and so on making such experiments a bit risky. But I can use WOT acceleration from time to time and the MP4 with the current engine calibration is very noticeably quicker than the 458 and I do like that. And both cars are way too fast to exploit their full performance envelope on the street, so if you never track the car, you probably should rely on the subjectives.

Again, to each their own, the Ferrari is clearly the more preferred car by most, has the better resale value, and is gorgeous in sight and sound, but I just have a problem spending more for the slower car.

 

Xz8, how many miles do you have logged in the 12C? 1000? 500? 100? 50? Less?

 

How fitting that McLaren would choose the cheetah as the symbol for their new car. I agree that they are cheetahs aka cheaters after they were in cahoots with Nigel Pevney to steal F1 secrets from Ferrari. they were fined massively and disgraced. And Ron Dennis was the cheetah in chief.

No wonder McLaren goes to such lengths to protect their own secrets...they know first hand what master cheaters are capable of.

 

These are not accurate descriptions of the experience of driving the 12C. The steering and handling are on par, or better than, the Ferrari's. In addition the "over boosted" description actually belongs to the Ferrari’s steering, not the McLaren’s. The 12C almost feels like manual steering when you get to speed - it feels extremely connected, crisp and precise.

I own both and I get to go back and forth between them. If you start in the McLaren then get in the Ferrari then the Ferrari steering feels way too light and over boosted like the car is too loose. If you go the other way the McLaren steering feels like a good old-fashioned manual steering rack, more connected but never too heavy or too light.

They're both conditions of being used to driving the other. In reality they both have great steering and handling. Neither is better than the other in this category they're just different. If I had to absolutely place the two I'd say the McLaren wins slightly in this area because of how the suspension translates the road through the wheel and the way that McLaren easily eats bumps in the road that unsettle the Ferrari. So the McLaren steering needs less input over bumpy roads. Sometimes when driving the 12C I find myself delicately holding the steering wheel wondering how they this to be so good. It makes you feel really happy to drive it.

As for suspension alone - well that's an absolute clear win for the McLaren. No contest there. Ferrari has a nicer engine note - no contest there either. The Ferrari is also quieter at idle which I like. McLaren still has nice growl to it so it's no slouch in the engine sound department just not as refined at the Ferrari.

 

Having driven the 458 coupe 5,000 miles, the 458 spider 3,000 miles and the 12c 8,000 miles I prefer the 12c in almost every respect. The 458 steering weight is much too light for my taste. Even my 911 has better steering feel. But it was the 458 spyder that really made me appreciate the 12c carbon fiber tub. The 458 spyder frame flex is simply awful on a twisty mountain road, top up or top down. Combined with the light steering I did not feel connected to the road like I do in the 12c. Every time I went to the garage I could pick either and I simply found myself no longer wanting to drive the 458. Don't get me wrong, the 458 was one of the best cars I have ever driven --- until I got the 12c. Depreciation-wise, yeah the 12c loses in that department. But for me its worth it.