McLaren Depreciation 12-C: a nightmare- werewolf?

Kool aid comes in all colors. Some obviously drink a lot of red. But that should be expected on this forum, as it is for Ferrari lovers.

McLaren guys, this is like going on the Ducati site to discuss Harleys. Give it up. Many F owners only rev on the highway on ramp so the exhaust flap can open!

As for journalists being experts and knowing all: You know, "gullible" is not in the dictionary. LOL!

 

Yes I do. They are just data points. If you want to base your understanding of -- anything -- on someone you don't know, are not aware of their motivations, without knowledge of how an article was edited... by all means go ahead. For me personal experience is a must, but that's just me.

When I was in marketing I ghost wrote articles that would get published. I would have customers quoting back to me, the key aspects of article I wrote. The press is a magnificent thing... to be manipulated.

Heck, I love my F12. But certainly not for the reasons the press says. Indeed, I think they generally missed the mark. I suspect it is easier for them to regurgitate what the Ferrari press packet is pushing out.

"But if you can only buy one..." do buy the one the press tells you to. No personal judgement necessary.

 

I don't think that anonymous statements in such a forum like "my MP4 has more engine power and is faster, therefore it is the better car than the 458" are more reliable than any press articles. Only my 2 cents...

 

Please tell me how a few hours on a track can give any meaningful incite when it comes to real life ownership. Seriously. I want you to answer me how it's possible that people who test cars on tracks and in limited time and situations can give an accurate idea of what it's like to own.

You continue to dodge this question. Why?

Just a couple examples:

Reviewers said the swipe feature on the 12C is hard to use and getting in and out is difficult, as is parking. Guess what? None of those things were difficult for me. Swipe worked the first time, after trying two different ways I found it easy to get in and out, and parking in my garage has actually been easier than any other car because I let throw the doors open all the way without having to think about it because I know it can't hit anything.

Reviews said the 458 is a better driver's car. In reality, most Ferrari putz around town doing nothing but the speed limit and a straight line for 5K miles over 5 years. For most people, the most important measure of performance is actually a straight line for 30 - 80mph, but you'd never know that from reviews. Half the FS ads make sure to say never tracked, never drag raced, no rain, immaculate.

How come Randy Probst didn't mention that the wheel liners on the 12C are prone to serious wear after a couple of tracks days and aren't covered by warranty. Sounds like something very relevant to track drive. Oh wait, it's because he doesn't own one and only did a handful of laps one day in one random car. How come the reviewers didn't mention the paint issue near the rear side window trim or the rattle that develops in the front of the dash that is known about and can be fixed? Oh, maybe that's because they only drove it for a day and didn't know these are problems that develop over time and/or only become apparent if you drive it every day for a month.

Reviewer information is borderline irrelevant to real ownership. Having experience with 10 Ferraris and 20 Lamborghinis and 40 Porsches doesn't mean you know what it's like to live with a 12C every day for 3 years, or any car for that matter. If you come to conclusions about a car based on reviews, you're a moron.

BTW, how many miles do you have logged in a 458 and 12C?

 

Oh, and in your situation, it's irrelevant which car you chose. You'll never know which was the right choice because you'll never experience both based on what you say. Left door, right door. It doesn't matter where they lead because it's unlikely you'll be going back.

If you buy a 458 now, I'm almost positive you'll never own a 12C. If you buy a 12C now, I'm almost positive you'll never own a 458.

 

Who said they were?

 

Relax x z. We have all read motor trend. You even posted it earlier in this thread. It is really amusing how hard you are insisting that motor trend is absolute.

Clearly missing the point.

Don't worry, your faith in your product has been well demonstrated to all, and your "best car ever" purchase is secure.

 

Thread has become useless troll complaining session. Enjoy your cars, trolls will hate the 458 and he envious of owners. Life too short.

 

Yes, you should do it!

Don't forget to post Tiff actually liking the 12c Spider. Makes you wonder what changed...

But then again, those who want positive reviews should go to the McLaren forums.

"Buy what you like, but when you can only have one.. buy what you like."

 

+1

Was fun to start with but now it's like a silly argument

 

Race car drivers race cars; racing is their main skill and qualification. What is the most important feature of a race car?

LAP TIME.

The 458 is nearly 2 seconds slower in the hands of Randy Pobst than the 458.

Laguna Lap | Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca Fastest Lap Road Tests - Motor Trend Magazine

As a racer, I do value lap times in a self-proclaimed "supercar." You have to get subjective to pick the 458. And most owners won't use either car to its potential, so pick the one you like best for the reasons that are important to you, but IMO that selection does not make one car "better" than the other.

If it can't be objectively quantified, it's not a criterion that can be adjudged better or worse in any overall way. If you agree with or want to be told what subjective factors are preferable in one car vs another, fine. Again, that does not make the car you pick better for anyone else.

Let's put it this way. The MP4 is faster than the 458, and to me faster is a big part of better. To others, it obviously is not.

 

I traded up from 400 hp (360 F1 Spider) to 570 hp (458 DCT Spider). Quantum leap...42% increase.

Going from NA 570 hp to 625 turbo hp is not a very big deal IMVHO. Only a 10% increase. Can I really use that noticeably on the road? Am I going to be able to pass cars that the 458 can't? Am I skilled enough to use the extra 10% hp noticeably on the track? (I doubt any of these questions could I answer with a yes).

To me the sound of NA flat cam Ferrari V8 gives me more pleasure than a 10% bump in hp. And then there is the 458S if you just have to have more hp and then the F12 with a stunning 730 hp. going topless is more enjoyable to me than more hp.

 

Actually, the most important feature of a race car is the design safety of it. Lap time is not a "feature" of a race car but more a feature of the relationship between the driver and the engineered specs of the car being driven.

Most certainly, as you stated, faster is not necessarily better. A supercharged Dodge Viper can be considered an extremely fast car yet is not necessarily a better car in design, safety or performance...it ALWAYS depends on the driver.

 

The driver was the same in the times published by Motor Trend, so I thought the lap time comparison was pretty apt.

Safety is not the point of a race car, speed is. All other things being equal, the safer car is the slower car and I don't recall safety features being one of the criteria MT or anyone else used to compare the 458 and 12C, as both must have the federal minimums and both probably are well above that.

Racing cars is intrinsically dangerous; danger can be mitigated but not eliminated. Every racer I know uses the required safety equipment for his or her class of racing, such as a well- designed and constructed roll cage, good containment seat, HANS device and protective clothing, but none of us devote any extra time into developing extra safety features. We do devote time to engine power, suspension setup, and driver development to GO FASTER.

Now of course neither the 458 nor MP4 is a race car, but since I race, I said - or at least meant to say - that faster is better. Unlike "drama" or the type of noise the car makes or curb appeal, speed can be measured and the faster car is better. Does anyone really think in the supercar segment that slower is better? Why then did Ferrari increase the power of the 458?

I know (but don't understand why) that some folks can't or won't ever use the available performance out of a car and therefore subjectives appeal to them. Those preferences simply don't make the car better, any more than white is the best car color because most people prefer white.

PS I actually do think the Viper is better than the 458, but that's another debate.

 

I don't particularly like the Mac but seriously give it a break! We got your point...move on!

 

Hilarious as usual. He didn't test it for 6 days because he tested 11 cars!

12 hours * 6 days / 11 cars = about 7 hours/car.

Call me back when they reach the 2000 mile mark. I put a 1K miles on it after the first month and I was still only just getting used to the car.

BTW, you still never told us how much seat time you had in a 458 and 12C so far. Please share.
BTW 2, that Zr1/458/12C article was before the 2013 update.

 

Nah, of course not. In reality, both of these cars and many others will do exactly the same things on the road. I say just buy the one you like the look of best at the price you can afford. There are trade-offs for each and IMO neither is any better than the other in the real world.

One sounds a little better, one goes a little quicker. One has doors that go up, one has a better looking front, one has a better looking rear. One has this, one has that.

The big 12C selling point right now though, imo, is that you can get a practically full warranty car with barely on miles in very high-spec for $200K or less. That's a hard deal to pass up if you are in the market for this class of car. At the same price, they are equal. At that price, the 12C is the better buy imo.

 

It's becoming cringe-worthy rubbish now isn't it.

The threads value diminished a long time ago.