Stumbled across this 250GTO restoration

In evaluating Classiche documents it must re remembered that S.F. built a complete rolling chassis/drivetrain after which these were sent out to one of several carrozerias for body design, construction and finishing.Later as each car was used,raced, crashed,resold etc much of the restoration/repairs/modifications etc were not done by S.F. but by other shops world wide. The only records of these jobs would be available to S.F if provided by the actual shops that did the work. The result is that most of the documentation available to Carozzeria is limited to what was done at S.F and not all of this is reliable or even still available. Maybe the best example of this is many of the design drawings for the P series cars that went to David Piper.As a result we need to give Classiche some leeway when it come to what was original on any particular s/n and what was typical for the"type" of vehicle involved. One can make the argument that it may be better for Classiche to out source some of their work on a particular s/n to a shop with a wealth of experience with that "type" of car. tongascrw

 

^^^ Chassis were made by Gilco and later Vaccari & Bosi.

 

This was a full restoration carried out a few years ago now by Mototechnique who are working on my car and yes they use an English wheel and quite a monster it is too.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/288gto-f40-f50-enzo-laferrari/396915-f40-lm-restoration.html

 

+1 and don't you just love those hammer marks

 

You pose a false choice.
There is little reason to suppose that traditional methods are more likely to result in the sort of gross mishaping you suggest.

 

George, I was referring to some of the cars erroneously Classiched despite readily available information.

 

BTW do you know what was the test for the apprentice to graduate at Scaglietti?
they were given a flat sheet of metal and asked to make two half spheres that would actually fit together to make it as a whole sphere.
No real space for mishaping there.
It is as if Michelangelo when carving the Pieta was unable to do a proper shape because he was using a hammer and chisel. Well in marble you cannot correct your mistakes.
So the real ones are real artists.
What you can say, of course, is that a not so talented person would do better with a wheel than with a hammer. This is correct.

 

And it's an even simpler answer:

I'd be happy to own a 250 GTO regardless!

I'm simply not that anal about these things to worry about, or reject a car because the restoration wasn't done with hammers!

As I've posted already, once the lead/filler/primer and paint go on the car, then you're not going to see any difference to the cars (so long as it's all been done correctly!).

I suspect that a lot of these cars have had all manner of repairs and restorations carried out on them that weren't exactly as the factory did it originally, and in many cases, I suspect that the owner are completely oblivious to it!

The fact is, whilst the English wheel wasn't used by the factory to build the cars originally, it's not some sort of restorers corner cutting bodge that completely destroys the cars value or makes it inaccurate dimensionally! - It's just a different method to achieve the same result.

Does a hammer beaten car look any better than an English Wheel bodied car?
Does an English Wheel bodied car look too perfect?
Or when restored, filled and painted, do they both look pretty much identical?

You're talking about being factory correct when restoring a GTO, so how far do you go?

Would you be happy to have non-Italian metal used for body repair sections?

Should all replacement mechanical parts be machined on manual machines only and where necessary, be sourced from Italy?

Like I say, I'm simply not anal enough to be so annoyed/disgusted/distraught/upset about a car being restored with an English wheel rather than with hammers.

As the old adage goes: "There's more than one way to skin a cat!" - The thing is, all the different ways to do it achieve the exact same result in the end!

 

I didn't say traditional methods would produce a grossly misshapen body. It may produce a less accurate copy but I will concede that the degree of variance from the master should only be the same as other bodies made by the traditional method. My main point was that the nay sayers will say it's wrong anyway.

 

Boo birds are best ignored. They bring nothing to an argument, just like citing their opinions.

 

Vizsla: Classiche outsources almost ALL of their work.

 

Their work yes but not their certification.

 

When you have such vast resources and passion for a particular model that you can add your name to the elite GTO owners club, one would assume you have the resources and desire to get as anal as you wish about the details of a restoration.

Something as simple as an authentically made body is the most obvious.

The question is worth posing once again. If you were presented with two GTO's identical in EVERY way other than how their bodies were made, one being produced on an english wheel the other made true to how the original bodies were made, which one would you take? (the delight at being given ANY GTO aside of course)

Again, its a very simple question.

 

The one made in the authentic manner of course.

But

You don't get to choose. If you're lucky enough to be offered one its either it or none.
The odds of a more suitable one becoming available any time soon aren't good.

 

I think it should be pointed out that the English Wheel and the Hammer method do not produce similar results.

It is only the surfaced body that then makes them similar.

But with some of the race cars this surfacing would not be as thorough and would leave some of the feel of the hammered body so no they are not indistinguishable from each other.

As to how anal should you be? As Anal as you want or don't want to be. But you can't say that an English wheel body is as correct as the hammer method. Good enough? But Ferrari people seem to be sticklers on getting it right and if you want perfection then the English wheel is not the way to go.

 

but when you have an authentic body that needs to be repaired, does not it add value that anyone can afterwards tell what parts of the body have been replaced? This way the use of an English wheel is making it very clear which parts are original and which parts have been replicated.

 

Off course you can, but only by removing more material. This, being essential, affects the way you work, off course!

 

The use of an English wheel does not at all imply accuracy. Neither method does. They are just tools or methods.

Getting the shape wrong is a disaster. I also have to disagree with so many that say a body cannot not be perfect by the hammering method. It can be done just as good as the English wheel if you have the time and patience. BUT remember these cars were built to race, not to win concours competitions ... Scaglietti's people did not have the time, nor did they care. If it won they loved it, but otherwise they really did not care. You should read about how Autodelta prepared Alfa GTA's in the 60's ... did not even wash the dirt off them. As long as the engines made big numbers they were grinning from ear to ear!
Pete
ps: The only way to get the body dead right for a particular period is to have access to the very same body buck. Does not matter who makes it, what methods, etc. without that buck you are going to only get it so close. Might look right from some angles but that is as good as you can get.

It's all about the body buck ... and I doubt very much if they still exist. The only way would be to 3D scan a GTO that we all agreed was the most right and make a body buck from that.

BUT a racing Ferrari from this period should NOT be perfectly straight. I believe they used to line the inside of the panels with some black goo to sort out the imperfections.

If you turned up with a 100% original racing Ferrari from this period you would not get entry to many shows I reckon ... but I'm sure I'm wrong!

 

I would hope at this level that any repair/restoration being conducted would be thoroughly documented by a reputable shop in order to make clear what has been repaired and what is original, thus saving the owner and potential new owner from a patchwork body of hammer and wheel.

That seems a far more logical way of documenting work done.

 

Lets not forget that the quality of the restoration is dependant on the budget. One can only assume that anyone paying current GTO values will not skimp

 

Money yet again does not buy taste. The car was and is an embarassment to both restorer and owner. When asked what colour the car was supposed to be the restorer replied....'Rosso Kev'.......It aptly described the finished car.

 

I imagine both dont give two hoots what anyone on here thinks. One owns a 250GTO thats appreciating in value regardless, and the other gets to rebuild all sorts of exotics and is paid well to do it.

 

Interesting. Seems like it is more important to these guys to do the body the right way, hand hammered, on a 300,000 exact 550 spyder recreation then it is for someone that is restoring a multi-million dollar car with actual Ferrari pedigree.....

SPYDER CREATIONS - 550 SPYDER TRIBUTE CAR Main

This $320,000 Replica Is So Accurate It's More Porsche Than A Porsche

Hmmm. Recreations being built more correct then priceless originals. Who woulda thunk it?

Guess no one cares. Guess it's close enough.

 

Possibly a silly question, but how do you get lead to stick to aluminium ?

Regards, Alberto

 

Yeah, it's a simple question but completely meaningless. How about two identical GTO's, one offered at 25 million bucks and the other offered for free. Which one would you take?

Again, a simple question.

Unfortunately one would have to wait a long time to have two identical cars offered to them except for the tools used on the body and I suspect the wait would be just about as long as if one were waiting for a free gift.

In other words, a simple question is not the same as a valid question.