Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

McLaren won't release anything. Their PR own goal means they can't without massive loss of face. However, an independent 3rd party could...

 

I've probably read every single P1 article out there and all the official media releases from McLaren and they made it clear from the beginning that they will build 500 P1s "maximum". Then we heard in March 2012 that the final production number was 375 and it was a "surprise" to most people, but certainly not for the ones who read and followed their statements thoroughly and correctly from the start.

That's true, they went back to the 'Ring after Pebble and they improved the time. I also heard a few days ago that they can still improve it. The last time at the 'Ring they were only doing testing to some changes ("updates" ) to the car and not trying to post a lap time.

McLaren haven't made an official announcement yet, when they do, I'll make sure to post it here.

 

They would have definitely done it if it didn't have some drawbacks. It might be related to the type of brakes that they're using? I don't know.

I've heard a few customers who have driven the 918 say that the brakes felt "funny".

 

Is the 918 now sold out after announcing a Ring time under 7?

Seems buyers now don't care it weights close to 4K lbs. Guess I need to appreciate Ring times now.

 

Noone is doubting the 16.5 seconds that McLaren claims for the same dash. Where is the proof for that?

As for the Enzo downforce thingy, there are many ways to measure it. Different tunnels, give different results! Even in F1, correlation is a huge issue! Enzo's lap times speak for themselves though.

Cheers.

 

Not sure how the incompressible form of the Navier-Stokes equation (in spherical coordinates) is related to what Jim's saying, but nice to see someone going in the right direction.

 

BTW, P1 charges the battery when...

1. You lift off the throttle. The electric motor turns backwards to generate energy to the battery (P1 uses mechanical clutches to do this). The amount of charging depends on your speed, gear, engine (gas) RPM, powertrain mode, etc. This is pretty standard Prius stuff.

2. You're driving steady. The gas engine revs a bit higher than needed. This is used to spin the electric motor backwards - again to charge the battery. Yes, you're wasting a little gas when driving steady (not a big deal) to charge the battery. I don't believe Prius does this. Their customers would rather use regenerative braking.

With this, it's unlikely for the P1 battery to discharge, even after many laps on the Ring.

I believe 918 and LaFerrari are pretty much the same in this regard. All you have to work with are a motor(s)/generator(s), engine and battery. Then it's up to who has the smartest computer, how big their batteries, motor and engine are, and who doesn't want to sacrifice driver feel (e.g., regenerative braking technologies). That's pretty much it.

 

Mark,
I understand you are a 'Mclaren Fanatic' but the fact Mc Laren avoid to use rigenerative braking to preserve brake feeling doesn't mean 918 or Laferrari will not a good brake feeling due that technical choice.
I like what McLaren is doing but its technical staff is for the most part sacked from competitor and its production history is so young
Porsche has better engineering than McLaren, believe me.

 

Who exactly?

 

not sold out, but selling plenty. close to 4000lbs? 3675lbs curb with Weissach Pack. and will get lighter throughout product life cycle. all that tech, hardware. pretty darn respectable. it all works very well...pretty darn impressive. that V-8 noise...superb. great proportions, looks fantastic...and an open top. sub 7 min at NB? that's flat out sand box butt kicking, taking the other kids lunch money... and THEN punching their parents too!

as for car now having 910+ hp? insane.

 

i'd like to know more about this too. early prototypes had slightly non-linear pedal pressure due to programming...but latest cars said to have much improved feel. it's an integration thing.

 

xku807: I hope i can explain why McLaren's decision may make a lot of sense.

This hyper car competition between these three (3) manufactures has no set rules to abide to. Each manufacture can wish to select any displacement, induction system, number of cylinders, brakes, etc. You get my point, they can do whatever they desire in producing their hyper car invention.

If you examine the McLaren P1 platform, they selected a twin turbo 3.8L V8 as their engine, producing 727hp and 531 ft/lbs torque. Their hybrid system produces 176hp and 192 ft/lbs torque. Your question is a valid one "why not build a 903-hp engine". You can definitely do what you suggest but if you want 903 hp and 723 ft/lbs of usable torque with acceptable fuel consumption you probably won't do it in a 3.8 L displacement light engine. There are so many variables to consider when selecting the power platform for these road cars, all which are a compromise to extreme motor technology. Once you begin to just consider fuel mileage alone, the engine selection is a compromise.

Another important aspect to consider is the efficient delivery of hp and torque throughout the usable rpm range. On road and circuits, If you compare engines with comparable hp, the engine that produces more torque in the lower rpm ranges generally exit corners faster. Also, aside from extreme engineering, naturally aspirated (NA) engines develop more low end torque than turbocharged engines. This is where the hybrid system selected by McLaren really compliments their 3.8L turbocharged engine platform. Their hybrid system is designed to fill in the low rpm torque deficiencies of their turbo engine. It surely wasn't implemented to provide ultimate fuel efficiency. This is all about performance.

So why even select the turbo engine? Since there are no rules, I believe this selection by McLaren is actually a brilliant one. Since proper power delivery is essential to road / circuit vehicle performance McLaren has the ability to program their power delivery requirements via their boost controllers, providing them the capability to map power to each gear aiding in vehicle drivability. This can not be easily accomplished in a NA ICE (Porsche V8 / Ferrari V12) platform. McLaren can also easily dial up more hp by cranking up their boost if so desired. Not easy in a NA platform.

I am very interested to see the LaFerrari perform with their big V12 and KERS systems. I just think they are lacking aero compared to P1. In the end, without any rules these vehicles are hard to compare. Time well tell which manufacture built the better performing hyper car

 

Whether the motor is providing drive or it is being driven, it spins in the same direction. No backwards rotation occurs.

 

Why do you need maximum output to the car at all times? If I'm breaking hard or in a very tight turn, why does it matter whether I'm using chemical engine to move the car or to charge the battery?

In the end though, all those who drove it the other day said the cars never ran out of power.

 

This is the nail on the head man--but the problem with acknowledging double standard reality is that you have to be willing to call all sides on the carpet. Call the P1's PR fail just that.

McLaren's PR department were smart enough to recognize their underdog status in Ferrari's effectively cornered (based on wait lists/orders placed) hypercar market. They played all the right performance cards: 'Ring time, acceleration figures, lateral g's, downforce, etc. All of these are very publicly accessible and agreed-upon benchmarks, and among the internet buzzworld particularly, the 'Ring time remains king (witness EVO's defense of McLaren--they wouldn't have addressed the 'Ring if it weren't important).

They still have yet to deliver on this promise. The tech powering the car might be really trick (I don't doubt any of your statements), but they still have yet to demonstrate old fashioned superiority. They remain the underdog.

 

This would be interesting.

 

Their failure in my eyes was coming to this conclusion too late. Again, there's no rewind and they can't take back what Ron said in Geneva. If his statements had been a little more cautious people would still be clamoring for the Ring time, but might not feel cheated (or see it as an opportunity to attack) without those words having built the anticipation.

>8^)
ER

 

Most importantly: Have passion, be insanely attentive to detail, and make no promises.

Then: Build a gorgeous car for a few years; then develop it, update it, build it for a few more years, and sell it to the same customer base; develop that one, update that one, build that one for a few more years, and sell another one to the same customer base; etc.

Then: Oh--journalists want to drive the car? Sure. Have fun!

Then: Develop it, update it, build it for a few more years, and sell it to the same customer base; develop that one, update that one, build that one for a few more years, and sell another one to the same customer base; etc.

Then: Build a race car. Take it to the 'Ring. Set a lap time. Make a video. Go home.

Then: Build a new gorgeous car for a few years; then develop it, update it, build it for a few more years, and sell it to the same customer base; develop that one, update that one, build that one for a few more years, and sell another one to the same customer base; etc.

Ad infinitum. Pagani is a niche market unto himself. No numbers, no marketing, no BS, no nothing--just incredible cars.

 

You forgot a couple points on the Pagani Marketing list...

Then: When supplying a car for Top Gear testing, fit hand cut slicks.

Then: When confronted about it - bold faced lies.

Keep in mind, I like Pagani, but this is inexcusable behavior and I am still surprised Top Gear have let it slide.

>8^)
ER
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Then lie to the DOT and EPA about being unable to certify the Hyurararahaha to US standards and ask to get exempt status. Then get a reply from the US gov't with "You have money, you can modify it to make it legal." Ha!

 

scandal was quickly swept under the rug. it, imo, was indicative of just how 'important' lap times, 'figures marketing', have become that even Pagani felt the pressure to impress in the numbers game. a way of saying the inherent qualities of their cars alone is not enough these days.

 

that the 918 is everything it is, can do what it does...no need to ask for exempt status. parent company has deep pockets, yes, but darn the engineers know what they're doing when designing a product...right from the get go.

 

And Porsche use their own engines in their own cars. Novel idea.

 

I'll try and hold a sarcasm sign next time for you.

 

And stick to it. (No sarcasm intended)