of the two cars mentioned, which is more desirable now? which is more collectable? in the 964 range, which one would you recommend - the C4 or C2 ? both in terms of maintenance and desirability? thanks in advance to everyone who chimes in ;-)
In terms of maintenance, not the C4. This is not based on first hand experience, mind you. This is something over which Zygomatic and I have shared copious amounts of discussion lately. Seems the fervor surrounding the 50th anniversary has really pulled up the prices for nearly all of the earlier cars, including the mid 70s 2.7s, which were long seen as ones to be wary of because of several well-known maladies and some aesthetic concerns (as with any car, that may or may not be deserved and really comes down to individual cases, IMO). Hence, values were a bit depressed compared to other early cars. Not anymore! Good ones will, at least in the short term, continue to climb or hold value, again IMO, regardless of the stigma apparently. Of course, I also have no true sales data. Now, the 964...great car, and I think the beginning of the truly modern 911, but still very rootsy and visceral. All 911s seem to be doing ok right now, so I guess the question is what are you looking for? Classic, raw, potential for true collector status? Go older. More refined, quicker, a few more modern amenities? 964. Again, I'd avoid the 4, and if you're concerned about values, take a gander at asking prices for 4s vs 2s, etc. and I think you'll see what I mean. But really, I don't think there's a "bad" choice here! They are all really fun cars.
I've owned both and would go with the 964. Though both are great pure 911's. The 964is just a bit more comfortable to drive, better A/C, ABS, power steering. Last of the hand built 911's. Should drive both and decide and then start your search. I too would avoid the 964 C4 unless want to drive in foul weather. C4 is heavier and was the first rollout of 4 wheel drive for Porsche. I still have my 964, and not sure will sell it soon, as it is so much fun to drive and not forgiving when pushed.
Chupacabra hit the nail on the head above. About the only things I'll add are (1) the '76 won't be fully galvanized, so check for rust. And (2) a lot of which you'll think is better depends on what you want out of your 911. The '76 will be lighter and closer to the first generation cars. The 964 is heavier, but definitely has more "grunt" when you put your right foot down. You can't lose either way -- so enjoy the hunt and your (eventual) new car
+1 for 964 C2. Get the latest 964 you can find, a 93 or 94 as they have latest updates. Earlier models should have those updates by now, but the factory learned from their mistakes after the first couple of years.
For collectability, I would go with the earlier car for its relative simplicity and the fact that it's a 911 (the 964 looks old school, but was really a near total redo.) My brother had a '92 964 C2 targa, which had the usual engine sealing problems, plus creaks, squeaks and leaks. Not a great car. But, I would take a 930 over either of those. That may end up being the last really collectible of the original concept. I know it will cost more, but you will get all of your money back if/when you sell, which is a better indicator of the true cost. And if you really want collectible, the pre-'74 911s are it, but pricewise they are already expensive. The 911T is underrated, and those used to be relatively cheap, but at least in the US prices are up on those as well.
If you want the older style 911 go for the 78-83 911 SC or the 84-89 Carrera. All of these are better than the 76. In addition, the 964 is a great car and very similiar to the 993 aka the holy grail of rare air
Honestly, the 964 is such a different 911. It has frame rails, the hood is a different length, and all kinds of other things that marks it as such a vastly different car than everything that came before it that I would say you just about have to get the 2.7. I don't consider any of these an investment but the '76 car is more true to the car's heritage. I do love 964's and came close to buying one as a DD on a number of occasions but learned from the real 911 experts in my circle that I should stay away from the C4 as the early AWD is highly complicated and not very robust. If you're looking for a 911 as an investment, though, you should probably look elsewhere.
Excellent advice... problems with the 964 C4 drivetrain. As far as the '76, if the thermal reactors have been removed (if it had them), if the 5 blade fan has been replaced by an 11 blade, and if the engine tests well (comp & leakdown), it's probably OK. Have a friend with a mid-year (74-77) that has over 200k on it, but it's had a rebuild. Jay (above) has good advice too, the SC and Carrera are 2-300k motors, generally and are fully galvanized ('77 and on - 76 is only partial). I'm generally not a 964 fan for some of the reasons above, although if you need A/C it's your best bet.
Cant remember if mine was a 74 or 76. I think the 74 had a normal exhaust system and the 76 had whats called thermal reactors. The expansion rates of the engines different materials would pull the studs out of the heads for the reactor cars. Bog slow but neat anyhow.
this is very true with the mag engine cases. fixable with expensive dilvar stud replacement. make sure that has been done or you can look forward to all the oil in the sump making an appearance on the garage floor... I do otherwise love the 2.7. it sounds soooooo great and revs and revs. good luck!!
thanks for all the advice above......i was thinking of joining a porsche forum but you guys are brilliant enough i don't think i'm going to join one till i get a P-car!!! (plus i already spend way too much time here, can't afford to be joining and reading up stuff on other forums!) lol! and yes the 930! that's the holy grail isn't it.....there aren't any for sale around my neck of the woods!!! and they aren't within my budget even if one did come up!!! so i gather stay away from the C4---- besides that, i'll keep my options open....thanks again guys.....
Hmmm. I'm not sure why all the C4 hating going on here. When I went on the hunt for a 964 (my favourite of the 911's) I drove both a C2 and a C4 and much preferred the C4 as the feel of the car was more solid and predictable, to me. Perhaps it has to do with my lack of experience driving a rear-engined car but I vividly recall all the warning of the Porsche guys telling me C2's are more counter-intuitive and tail-happy than the C4's As for maintenance, I've done all the maintenance on my 964, which I still own, myself and have had zero issues with the AWD system. Again, it might just be me and my inexperience but the C4 felt more 'mid-engined' than the C2. I love my C4!
I had a 2.7 from a '77 car in a hot-rodded '72 coupe. Lightweight flywheel, weber carbs, RS pistons and rods. It was the best engine I've ever sat in front of (or behind for that matter). Real screamer, great poke, the wail above 4k rpm at WOT was intoxicating. If you don't mind making some modifications, that '76 could be quite the machine. Having said that, it won't help the value of the car. I've driven a number of 964s, and they are all great cars. I'd tend towards the C2 for a fun car, rwd in a 911 isn't as scary as some seem to make you believe. Quite fun, in point of fact. Not sure about how collectible these will be, but it seems like just the other week we were saying that about the 2.7 l cars too, and look at them starting to move now. I've always thought the 964 reminded me of the 2.7s in terms of desirability, not as raw as the earlier car, not as capable or pretty as the later cars. Having said that, I'm in the minority and actually prefer the looks of the 964 to the 993.
I think a lot of people dismiss the c4 because of what they read on the internet. As an owner of a 1991 c4 and 1995 c2, I can say they are both great cars. The awd system is over engineered. I was a big time 993 supporter before I caught the 964 bug, now if I had to choose the 964 is my favorite. Modern drivetrain and creature comforts of 993, narrow body styling of the classic 911 of the 70's - 80's. I was looking for a c2 coupe for the same reasons everyone else is, but I bought on condition and I am glad I did. There is a reason Singer uses the 964 as a basis for his cars... Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I'm browsing for my next DD, and I've considered a 964 or 993. Since I live in NJ, a C4 is a very desirable option, especially for light winter driving. I'm not a Porsche purist, but I think the C4 is a brilliant option.
I've experienced and owned a number of early 911's through 993. I currently have an '89 964 C4 with over 130,000 miles on it along with some other early Porsches. I've owned it for a year with zero issues. Ask yourself, why do so many have high miles on them? It is by far the most fun and amazing 911! I look for any opportunity to drive it. I'm a C4 believer! It's a 911 that begs to be driven hard and fast. It always feels safe and confident. Different than the "sweaty palms" you get in previous 911's. If you go on Rennlist forum you will see hundreds of posts. The C4 drivetrain is really robust and reliable. The owners are very enthusiastic about their 964's. I feel really fortunate to have one I had a '74 2.7 Carrera coupe in Mexico Blue. Was a great car with the early exhaust. The 964 is way more 911! 964's are an addiction! It truly is the ultimate "all weather" 911 machine! When I see some of the extreme weather it's used in on YouTube, makes me want to live in the snow! Freeman Thomas Co-Founder Rgruppe Member #003
I put this question to the guys on Pelican parts forum Advice on Living with a 964 C4 - Pelican Parts Technical BBS worth a read Cheers Graeme
Graeme, Thanks. Those guys on Pelican Parts are just the tip of the iceberg when talking how much they love their 964's and C4's! Also check out RennList 964 Forum: 964 Forum - Rennlist Discussion Forums . Also...Check out my friend, Jeff Zwart's video with his 964 C4 rally car: [ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CY4XeMBdirg[/ame] He still has it. Started life as a new U.S. spec road car then delivered directly to Porsche Motorsport and converted to C4 Lightweight spec. Really demonstrates what a machine these are! Freeman
If you can stretch to a 993 C2 coupe, I think you'll love the car, and you could recoup most or all of what you spend. Other than the Tiptronic cars, 993s are widely sought as the last of the classic Porsches (kind of like the 328 in the Ferrari world).
