Oil Smoke, possible sources to check. | FerrariChat

Oil Smoke, possible sources to check.

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Markphd, Nov 24, 2013.

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  1. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    My 355 has been dormant for a LONG time due to the fact that I was run over while riding my motorcycle and had to have a number of surgeries, but at long last I have it back on the road (and it seems to be running well with one notable exception). I have been driving the car like a new break-in period.

    Start up, warm up, normal cruise, moderate throttle below 6,000 RPM and all is fine. No issues. Above 6,000 RPM > 75% throttle, I am seeing significant oil smoke (I can see it clearly in the rear view mirror. The question is, why above 6,000 at open throttle. Under high vac conditions there is NO smoke at any RPM below 6,000. I am unsure of decel over 6,000 but I suspect it's the same story. On an American car, I would be thinking PCV, but on the Ferrari there is no PCV system.

    I know I need to do a leakdown, but have not had the opportunity to do one yet. I am hoping that I forgot a possible source of oil ingestion other than the rings and valve guides.

    Things that changed recently: New headers and exhaust, removal of the air injection system for the old headers, oil changed, SDECU's removed and replaced with aftermarket unit. No check engine codes. Engine runs smooth, starts immediately, sounds great. Oil pressure good, temps are stable and exactly where they should be.


    Mark
     
  2. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
    18,221
    Twin Cities
    Full Name:
    Tim Keseluk
    Oil level a bit high?
     
  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,931
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #3 Steve Magnusson, Nov 24, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
    I hoping that it's Tim's suggestion ;)

    This situation is where I'm a believer in using Marvel Mystery Oil (or at least just engine oil) sprayed/fogged into the cylinder and a little manual rotation to "gently reawaken" a long-term completely disused (never rotated) engine. Even then, it can still be unrecoverable if local corrosion has scarred the cylinder walls/rings enough, but F do have a crankcase vapor control (aka PVC) system (usually called "blow-by system" in the F documentation). Before doing the functional leakdown/compression tests, one easy thing that you can do is disconnect the oil vapor line feeding the crankcase vapors into the intake tract to see if the volume discharge is unreasonable and/or if there is an unreasonable amount of liquid oil condensate in the intake tract just downstream of where the oil vapor line connects. If not = maybe not much you can do but hope things free-up/wear-in at the rings. I'd probably try running some % of MMO in the oil for a while before resorting to the actual teardown. If so = check your oil level ;)...
     
  4. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    Although unused for a while the car was stored in a climate controlled garage. So corrosion, while possible, is not particularly likely. Like I said, it's running really well. I suspect that high oil level could be a culprit, especially if there is some way at high RPM, high load the car would/could ingest it. It also appears to be clearing up... It didn't do it tonight that I could notice...

    While it was significant smoke, it wasn't like playing spyhunter... I've lost turbo seals before and the amount of smoke that generates is a whole different level. I will check the oil level and let you know what I see.

    Mark
     
  5. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    13,662
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Italian tune up before you tear it down. You have nothing to lose.
     
  6. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    LOL, that's the wrong attitude to take with this car... It will bite you in the ass for it. I am not afraid to push the car, but I will have it figured out before I get crazy with it. Probably excessively high oil level is my bet. Just got up... So I will know in a few hours.
     
  7. roadracer311

    roadracer311 Formula 3

    May 6, 2009
    2,398
    San Francisco
    Full Name:
    Paul
    Don't forget to warm it up before checking. The manual doesn't call for the car to be all that warm, but I typically check mine at the end of every drive, right before I put the car away.
     
  8. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    13,662
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Porsche and Ferrari need to be driven hard, at high revs, in order to burn off the carbon in the engine. You let it sit for way too long, and crud has built up inside. You now need to drive it hard, then do another compression and leak down before you pass judgement on the engine.
     
  9. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    Agreed that I let it sit too long, and agreed that I need to exercise it for a few miles before passing judgement. Oil level was not too high, so that's off the table, if anything it was a little low.

    Now it looks like it's acting up both on decel and accel. We'll see what a compression and leak down test show in a few miles. It would be sad to have to do a teardown on the motor or the heads at only 23k miles. On the plus side, it does run pretty healthy despite the excessive smoke. I have not put my foot into it all the way, but the power is there. She's a nasty little girl that wants to run hard.

    FWIW, I have a custom exhaust on the car with electric exhaust cutouts. Push the switch and she's running open... pure unadulterated soundtrack.

    Mark
     
  10. plugzit

    plugzit F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2004
    7,790
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Bruce Bogart
    A compression and leakdown on a motor that's carboned up is useless. Do like yellowcab says. It invariably helps ultra-low mileage cars.
    It was fine when you put it away. Your answer is here. It's simple.
     
  11. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    29,252
    socal
    Mark,

    Take the car out on a trackday and run all day at 6/10ths-8/10ths and then test the car. I think these cars should have occasional mandatory trackdays. These cars run better after a good workout.
     
  12. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    Well that's not entirely true... The car had a failed header, something that I realized rather quickly. Obviously, those headers are off the car and the first repair that I did to it. I am unsure if this resulted in other damage or how long the problem had been there.

    There were a host of other problems, that come along with a Ferrari that has a sketchy history (lesson learned about that), as a result there were other problems (failed cats, both cats had failed cores). So I have been slowly and deliberately identifying the problems and resolving them. The motor still feels quite healthy despite the problems I have found, but only a leakdown and compression test will tell me for sure at this point.

    I will trust that it could be simply be carboned up. It does not seem that it is running in a condition in which wringing it out some will likely hurt it...

    This would not surprise me. Once I gain some confidence that there is no reason not to wring it out, I will.

    Mark
     
  13. Pantdino

    Pantdino Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
    2,069
    Full Name:
    Jim
    In the '50s it was normal to have to pull the head and "decoke" the tops of the pistons because the cars ran too rich and lots of unburned HC built up.

    Where does carbon build up on an engine that is not running?

    I have heard of the rings seizing to the cylinder bores, but what are you referring to exactly?
     
  14. Dan Kyle

    Dan Kyle Formula 3

    Jul 9, 2013
    2,115
    Carmel Highlands
    Full Name:
    Dan Kyle
    #14 Dan Kyle, Nov 28, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2013
    To me trying to burn off any carbon or other build up in the combustion chamber does not make any sense.

    Why would this build up, if it exists cause an engine to burn oil?

    So I would strongly advise against running it hard no matter what the problem is, as it is unlikely that will fix the problem.

    Like the poster above, I would suspect a ring problem, more exactly an oil ring problem.
    I have not seen rings seize to the cylinder wall, but they do rust and stick to the piston and lose the seal to the cylinder wall.

    A leakdown or compression test will not show this.

    But there is an easy check I would start with


    As I do not know your level of expertise I have to ask.

    First are you sure the smoke is oil? Bluish color Burning oil smell?

    If it is Remove the spark plugs, if it is burning oil, the plug(s) will be covered in either burned oil or wet oil.

    If it is just one cylinder this will tell you which one to turn your efforts toward.

    This is where I would start, if you decide to do this post the results.

    Good luck

    Dan
     
  15. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    Thanks Dan. It is most definitely oil!

    As to my personal experience, I probably have the worlds weirdest resume:

    1989-1993 F-15 Comm/Nav/ECM avionics tech
    1993-1998 Post Flight Data Analysis Programmer
    1994-2001 Founder/Owner Internet Service Provider
    2001-2003 Founder/Owner Dyno shop - Programmable EFI and Forced Induction
    2004-2006 College Student
    2007-2013 Military Mental Health Care Provider

    However I have plenty of experience as a dyno tuner, builder of turbo and supercharger systems, and even built a few engines and transmissions along the way for racing. I have a pretty good handle on working on cars.

    I am quite sure that this problem is a bad valve, valve guide, and/or valve guide seal, and I am quite sure that it will be easy to identify which cylinder is bad. I am sure that it's on the right bank, as I can isolate it from the oil in the exhaust system. It's not bad enough to foul a plug yet. Although, I am sure that in time it could/would foul a plug and an O2 sensor. The motor will get tore down in January/February, my biggest fear is being in Guam and having to ship everything off island.
     
  16. Dan Kyle

    Dan Kyle Formula 3

    Jul 9, 2013
    2,115
    Carmel Highlands
    Full Name:
    Dan Kyle
    Excellent.

    If it were a valve guide seal or valve guide, I would expect to see Smoke, Burning oil, under deceleration. You did not indicate that symptom.

    I am not sure how just sitting would cause either of these to fail.

    Dan
     
  17. pma1010

    pma1010 F1 Rookie

    Jul 21, 2002
    2,559
    Chicago
    Full Name:
    Philip
    I am assuming it sat for a couple of years from your description. Isn't it more likely that everything dried out and wouldn't valve seals be the most likely culprit?
     
  18. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    The car sat for the better part of a year. I have noticed smoke on deceleration, since my first report, I am pretty sure it's just one cylinder. The culprit is cylinder #2, it's the one that ate through the header about 6 inches past the entrance to the header at the first bend. It's pretty good sized hole and the exhaust port has a pretty significant amount of oil. It would be nice if it were just a valve seal, but my luck isn't that good.

    Mark
     
  19. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
    870
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    T. Monma
    holes in headers are proving, now that so many cars have had this, there is now an appropriaqte sampling pool: the tear down AFTER a 20-25K valve job-followed with volumes of smoke at tail pipe under a variety of loads and conditions, has revealed a distinct trend...
    when heads are removedTHE FDIRST time, it should have been more carefully examined in all holes which had exhibited porous headers, as there is a scorching of the NIKASIL which can actually seen clearly by the layperson...
    no matter how well you do a valve job in a 5-valve head, and it is a difficult job-if the nikasil has been compromosed, the ring seal is, essentially, shot...
    the fix is either a replacement of the liner with fitted piston and rings with pin and clips
    Yes, individually has proven adequate so long as other liners do NOT exhibit an IOTA of compromised surfacing...barring this somewhat cheesy approach, a full tear down with a new set of rings at the MINIMUM, along with properly recondition NIKASIL treatment and sizing to the exact tolerance of the MEASURED PISTON(IT is WORN, AFTER ALL)
    It is also highly likely that the cat has been comprom ised if the NIKASIL has been burnt...
    think of oil and pottery glazing as an appropriate comparison...
    good luck
     
  20. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
    BANNED

    #20 Cribbj, Dec 3, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
    335s, are you saying that the root cause is the excessive oil pass through & burning from the top end, and this oil burning causes the surface of the Nikasil to become "glazed"?

    So the valve guide issues with these heads can also cause issues in the short block?

    Do you have pics of a liner with a compromised Nikasil surface?
     
  21. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    11,276
    CT
    Full Name:
    John Kreskovsky
    Oil smoke on deceleration generally indicates valve seales. Oil smoke on acceleration or under load >> rings.

    Also, once the heads are off have a leak down done on the block to check the cylinder liners/rings.
     
  22. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    what happened to having a look inside the suspected areas... there are bore scopes available everywhere these days... better than guessing on the need for a full tear down...
     
  23. Markphd

    Markphd Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    713
    Sadly, I am in Metro DC for the next 3 weeks and will not be able to access my Ferrari. I may just pick up some tools while I am here, like a scope.... I don't have one and it's on my must buy list. I don't even know if anyone on Guam even has a bore scope, living in Guam usually requires me to have a certain amount of flexibility with regard to my automotive and other adventures.
     

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