David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

I guess this depends on what your measure or value system is when viewing this entire episode ex-post.

If you think that vintage Ferrari ownership is all about maximizing market value, then I suppose you're happy.

If you think that vintage Ferrari ownership is all about what making something that looks really cool, then I suppose you're happy (even though the work appears to have been inaccurately done).

If you think that vintage Ferrari ownership is all about doing whatever you want, just because you can, then I suppose you're happy.

If you think vintage Ferrari ownership is all about stewardship, then this has been a very sad affair, and the last remaining Ferrari that the Factory made to Can-Am spec is now a ghost. A real shame.

 

Given its negative exposure and flawed execution I hope that the owner got a "discount".
It will be a while, if ever, before he'll recoup his investment otherwise.

 

Yes.

The four faces of Ferrari owners.

 

Great post that sums things up very nicely.

 

Its called democracy

 

My understanding is that if MiuraSV posts any further comments on this thread, the powers that be who run fchat have threatened to delete his account.

I imagine Tonga was told the same! hence probably why their silence has been deafening.

Make of that what you will

 

As everyone knows, photos can be distorted, different lenses, lighting etc etc, the only way you could compare a pair of P4s would be if they were side by side, and given that each one was hand made then they will slightly differ anyway.

If one had a crumpled nose it would quickly be swapped out for another in period, no doubt these replacement panels evolved over time during their racing days so the cars stopped being original the first time they rolled out onto a track and raced in anger.

I find it amusing that many people think that a car is just a skin and that when that skin is changed so is the car, comparing 0858 to a replica is plainly daft when its underpinnings are pure P4

 

Quite an accusation.

 

Democracy implies a vote.

 

+858

There are still sensible people posting in this thread, Im quite surprised.

 

Underpinnings Pure P4?

I think some will take exception.

 

Just for the record tongascrew is alive and well and as far as I know in good standing on FerrariChat.My opinions on one particular subject about one particular P series car are well known and need not be repeated. I prefer sharing opinions with those whome I can respect for their factual knowledge and experience on a wide variety of subject vehicles. Fortunately FerrariChat continues to attract a wide selection of these people whome I feel privileged to learn from and can respect their knowledge and opinions and on occasion I can contribute something worthy of the discussion at hand. tongascrew

 

Glad to hear that George. I'd hate to think that any honest opinion would be the basis for a ban.

 

Unfortunate.
I wish that posters with skin in the game or other agendas would be upfront about it.

 

Nice pic's. It does look great under all that expensive lighting, with an expensive photographer, and a few retouches doesn't it? Stick it out in the sun in broad daylight and see how it really looks. And why is my "lie" irritating to you? Should that car not have sold a long time ago if it truly was a wanted and desired car?

 

All lies are irritating, but the irritation level grows if the lie is repeated after it has been refuted. It is not true that "no one" wanted the 350 Can Am. The car was offered at an RM auction in 2009. 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 | Ferrari ? Leggenda e Passione 2009 | RM AUCTIONS . Bids were made. This refutes completely your lie that "no one" wanted the car. The bidding did not meet the reserve, and the car did not sell.

 

It seems a tad inane that we get to the possible end of a thread about the restoration and potential (now realised) sale of a 330P4/ 350 Can Am and everyone feels the need to state their feelings for the millionth time. It is what it is and life goes on, doesnt it. At some point someone with enough cash will buy it and either convert back to 350 Can Am spec OR restore it accurately to 330 P4 spec. And whatever the owner chooses, they will do.

As to historically signifigant I would personally argue that the Mercedes W196 sold at Bonhams earlier this year is a perfect example in that it is and always has been in that shape, is very original and has unblemished provenance as the Fangio championship winning car. Birkins Bentley Blower from the year before has almost total originality but also adds the fact it is unique and was the only successful Blower in period. Finally the NART Spider sold this year at RM could boast having one owner since new, was stunningly beautiful and had absolute originality.

So the 330P4/ 350 Can Am that Talacrest was selling was unique in that it was the only 350 Can Am spec. car left and was quite original BUT it wasnt succesful in period, arguably it wasnt particularly beautiful and adding all of that up you could argue it simply isnt a historically signifigant car. That very well would be quite different if it was beautiful like a 330P4 and/ or if it had won the can Am championship. As an aside maybe it just isnt old enough for any of this to matter.

 

Guys,
Wayne's obviously been hacked.
We're on our own.

LOL.

 

From what I understand they are allegations made by the fchat people based on past posts by MuiraSV rather than hard facts that he is actually a representative of those mentioned.

Given that he lives over 200 miles from these companies, I find it a little difficult to believe he is in their employ.

Still always best I guess to silence people with threats of removal if you don't want a two sided discussion.

Using that great US phrase "I have no dog in this fight" I like to read all viewpoints and then make up my own mind as an amatuer enthusiast, but thats just me.

I actually agree that in the photos certain elements of the rebuild do not appear accurate but would want to see a pair of the cars in the flesh first to clarify whether that is in fact the case, and as mentioned given the value of the car such things could be and may well be rectified in the future.

One thing is pretty much undisputed though and that is 0858 started life as a P4 and was converted to Can Am spec and has now reverted to its former life, the car that rolls along now is essentially the same one that entered that first race all those years ago with a few cosmetic and mechanical changes along the way.

 

Paul, my comment wasn't direct at MSV or even limited to this thread.
I have no knowledge of any facts not stated here and also have no dog in this fight.
While anonymity can encourage candor it can be abused. The mods on this site aren't perfect they do a good job and tend not to weigh in until matters become extreme.

I've learned a lot from this thread. More from people I disagree with than those who share my views.

 

Agree..But you must also remember there a lots of cars don't sell at auction. They sell afterwords to buyers who truly want the car. The buyer and the seller meet afterwords and hammer out a price. The car has been available for a while, but either the seller was hard set on his asking price, or he had no other offers then at the auction.

Auctions count on impulse buys, but in this case the buyers didn't see a car they wanted at the asking price. Put that poorly done P4 body on it, and now the sky is the limit. It doesn't make much sense really. But now the car is pleasing to the eye, and people pay big money for that, regardless of what the car history is.

 

I for one like the two sided discussion. Even if he did work for the builder I am interested in what they have to say.

In absolutely no way is this P4 "essentially the same one that entered that first race all those years ago"

There is essentially no more of that P4 rolling around in it's current incarnation then there was in the Can Am.

There are a ton of P4's rolling around that essentially pull off the same illusion as this one. The sad reason this thread is a hard lesson to learn is that there are no more Can Ams for people to see, a car that was built from a decision that Ferrari made in period to go racing. Just pictures now.

And as far as pictures go, yes various elements can change how a picture looks.

I realize camera and lighting can make something prettier or uglier with lighting, lenses etc., but you can also get a general idea of what it actually looks like.

As far as the lit Can Am pulling a total illusion I still think that is ludicrous. In the amateur poorly lit garage photo's that run down car is still beautiful.

Also shot's of various P4's taken in similar environments /angles etc.. would be able to show differences that were glaringly off.

Cheers.

 

Exactly, even if he was a proxy for the owner/restorer (which I don't believe for one second) then why delete his account if he responds any more.

Makes no sense to me.