Classy is using 8th grade grammar and spelling.
I think John's posts have come across based on his experience and logic as opposed to litigation. He has been pretty clear and concise, without resorting to any insults. In fact having followed his exploits in the programs he puts together in New Orleans, the guy seems like a true car enthusiast as opposed to anything else.
Matthew, I don't now how long you have been around Ferrari Chat or if you follow the Historic Racing back in the South, but John has been an outstanding Ambassador for the Car Enthusiast. I don't believe he comes off disrespectful, trust me I know some serious Ambulance Chaser's, IMHO his posts did not come off that way. I understand what you are saying as well, that one takes a chance when they drive cars such as a CGT which is probably along with the FORD GT the last of the Analog Super Cars.
I actually was referencing Challenge Stradales not 360's of which only 1365 were made vs the sub 1300 cGT's. My point of reference was more about driver error and how it does happen too much as these cars are purchased 95 out of 100 times by people that shouldn't be. Just my opinion of course. Thanks but just back to defend the Cgt. Funny this thread was so old it came thru on an email notification. I took 3 tries to remember my user name and password even to post that comment. It's been answered but no. Not relevant in the driving when it's warm.
After reading a few points in this thread, my take away is: No there is likely No design flaw inherent in the CGT. I do think the definition of design flaw does need to be established more clearly, as it seems it is subjective and relative to one's own point of view. I was curious though if someone was going to be able to cast light on an engineering design flaw in the car. I do dream about driving one of these one day.
But I'm sure, and am confidant Mr. John, esq. is a stand up gentleman. Meanwhile back to our thread. The CGT is probably the end of an era, likely due to litigious types bullying the manufacturer into dumbing-down their cars to compensate for the 2rich 2inept client base hell bent on mayhem. Pity. Whatever happened to survival of the fittest? Guess us prols will have to build rat rods to get our thrills.
MMMMMAAAARRRRRRRKKKKKK!!!! Welcome back! Give us an update in the owners forum as to how you're doing. Luke
I disagree. I don't think the end of an era. It's too much about speed now and not craft. Driving used to be a craft mastered by so little but when done correctly a beautiful thing. I think without nannies because the new cars like the 918 to my point are so insanely fast that without aids they wouldn't actually stay on the road. It's nothing but keeping them on the pavement. Yes safer but drivable. Someone once said and I won't claim it. Remember when Sex was safe and driving was dangerous?
Mathew You should refrain from the personal insults. Besides breaking rules of this forum, you know nothing about me personally, or my businesses. Your fixation on the fact I have a law degree demonstrates you do not understand, have not read, or just plain choose to ignore the merit expressed in my posts.
Didn't the Federal Government Mandate Stability Control on all cars beginning in 2012? PS, Mark welcome back, how is your gorgeous car collection? Hope you had a great Thanksgiving?
Life is good Luke. Are you still keeping my 355 warm and dry Honestly life is fantastic. Kids have me slammed. Still have all cars but an old pickup and my RS America sold to a friend. I just don't play with any of them anymore. I hope all is great with you. Stokpro always can get in touch with me if you need my email.
Family is all that matters buddy. Andrew told me that you were laying low, but we miss you here. I just had the 355 detailed with thoughts of selling, but now, I just can't bring myself to do it. If I do, I will let you know. I will hold you to the same if the white CS ever comes available. I need to make a trip out west to see you and Andrew. I will keep you guys posted. Luke
Me thinks thou doth protest too much. Two poor bastards lost their life here and you're interested in your own vanity. Lighten up. Pray for the families. It's a stupid internet chat room. Meaningless. I'm a dumb know it all. Rhetoric is nothing without action. This is reality. Perspective is key. I wish all well in their endeavors.
now, go to a Yamaha dealership and watch the 19 year old navy enlisted lay down $15k for a 180hp superbike/missile...happens all the time. the supercar stuff and the infrequent tragic occurrence is a rarity by comparison.
I agree with you completely, and there's not much you can do to change that situation. And while I agree with you, I am not sure that changes the relative analysis concerning whether the CGT deserves its notorious reputation among modern supercars. And I've not met anyone I know to have much time seat time in a CGT, an F12, an Aventador and/or a Veryon who thinks the option of driver stability aids is "dumbing down" the machines. I don't know of a single person in the market for a P1, a 918 or LF that begrudges the availability of these stability aids. (I don't know Mathew's experience or standing, so he could be the first-and of course he's entitled to his opinion regardless of his experience in the matter). There will always be occasions when drivers turn them off, drive beyond the limit and/or do something else that leads to death. Acts of foolishness do not prove the absence nor presence of an issue. But a high profile event like this will no doubt put super cars under a spotlight. And the thoughtful analysis regarding why there is relatively more tragedy with the CGT versus another is helpful to understand all aspects of the problem and whether there is a viable better way.
The 930 Turbo was the "Widow Maker" back in the day, and was banned for a few years. It was not so much the cars fault (snap oversteer ?) as it was the general lack of skills most of the drivers had. Learn how to drive American muscle cars, get into a 930 back in the early to mid 80's, and you can get bitten by the car. Why would the CGT be any different from the fast 930's? Then you had Porsche Exclusive and Special Wishes cars. Cars that were $150k in the 80's. Ruf, Andial, DP? They were ( still are) fast, with no aids. I don't see people getting killed in those or suing everyone because someone wrapped a Ruf around a pole speeding in a 45 mph zone. Seems its all driver skill or lack of it.
Perhaps YOU can stop trolling John. Either stay on topic, and keep the personal comments, i.e. 'ambulance chaser', etc., to yourself, or you'll find yourself on a forced vacation from the board. Thanks for your cooperation. Mike
Nice! Keep them in Check. Anyway, I spun my red CGT back in the day (Thanks God I didn't hit anything) and it spooked me. Porsche should have made the Traction Control on those cars more intrusive and if you want it off then just push the button.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that event's like these and the legal wranglings post the fatal accident in Fontana have shaped Porsche's design of the new 918. They'll NEVER build a CGT type car ever again. You watch. And if they do, it wont come to the extremely litigious USA. This new 918 has: Four wheel drive, TC Stability PDK. E-diffs which juggle power. All of these thing mitigate clumsy/daft inputs from the driver putting a digital barrier up between driver and machine. This effectively means that you're not really driving it. You apply 100% throttle, the computer applies 67%...etc etc And because feel, sensitivity, skill, experience are added by the computer, these cars are less involving. Disagree if you will - this is just my opinion. I've driven the CGT many many times over many miles and rate it as the greatest supercar ever made. Totally uncompromised. I agree, the TC does NOTHING on that car. And with the old style Michelins, if the rears don't have temperature, stay the F**K away from the throttle. Similarly, it NEVER feels like it will understeer (on the road at least)which makes it totally at odds with 99% of road cars produced recently. But all of those things serve to make it more rewarding than any other car I've driven as well. (The Enzo is not in this picture - not even close). There was a time when wealthy-sports-car-enthusiasts bought the worlds most powerful and rewarding cars (and they were still killing themselves in them, as now). The difference today is, now you can delete the "sports car enthusiasts" from the demographic above. The buyer understands the risks less. He wants to drive around Newport Beach looking flash. And it's resulted in very different machines........ for better or worse? Well, I'll let you know when drive a 918.
Let's read what John has to say. He has the unique perspective of being an experienced legal mind, a true Supercar enthusiast & owner, and a racer. His musings on the subject come to us gratis! Anyone, yourself included, is exposed to some sort of legal liability as we use these cars on the road. Meanwhile, my personal perspective is that its very sad that someone who made a name for himself with street racing movies, dies in a car racing on the street (if indeed that is what happened). Lastly, KRTH/K-EARTH 101.1 FM Los Angeles, CA are reporting the cause of the crash being investigated as both "excessive speed and mechanical failure, a leaking steering system". I have no idea what their sources are.
the 930 is the original (and remains) the widow maker. it was not just the snap oversteer issue as that was not unique to the 930 but the way the power came on in a light switch fashion. an uninitiated owner could find themselves center punching the car in front of them as the boost would build so quickly and closing speeds were remarkable! 930's are now often in the hands of very careful and capable owners thus the stories have subsided. I can tell you that there are many corners where I drive mine where I remind myself that a gear change mid corner and big boost would be the end of me and my 930... to me the beast in the car and the reputation are part of the allure of ownership. just be careful out there guys as there is nothing to prove on the public roads. Michael, Joe and others....happy holidays of course! Peter
