Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

Today I had an interesting discussioin regarding the hybrid supercars.

Let's take the Porsche 918 as example: I assume the 918 is not capable to deliver the maximum system output for more then one round on the Nürburgring. The electronic system consumes much more energy than it can produce because the car permanently pulls power from the hybrid system. The battery will be more or less empty after one lap Nürburgring under high speed (in comparison: in the F1 the electric power is only six seconds per lap available).

Conclusion: already after the first round the performance of the 918 will collapse and the lap time will be much slower.

In comparison, for example, a Nissan GT-R Nismo can keep its 7:08 over several rounds.

Therefore I claim: over more than one round on the Nürburgring the 918 has no chance against a GT-R Nisom (and other conventionally powered super cars).

Bad for such a complex, highly sophisticated and extremely expensive super car.

Under this assumption think about the real value of an official Nürburgring record lap time.

 

But you know what they say about assume

 

Right now this thread is running circles. Most things have been said a dozen times. To sum it up (again, surely not the last time... ) for me it looks like this:

1. Surely McLaren did a complete lap under 7 min. Everything else is just not possible regarding communicating , reputation and so on....

2. They didn't beat Porsche. This means, that they would have been the fastest on the Ring if... yes if not Porsche did the better sub 7 right in front of them. Bad luck.

3. Of course it's possible that they were faster than Porsche. Why not? But then their communication is not logical. In no possible way. You really can't talk this away. Stupid.

4. This kind of communication of McLaren is a mess. Of course they sold all the cars. This doesn't cost them money. But from the communicating perspective it is/was a big mistake.

5. This absolutely nails it:

 

Actually they crashed testing at the Ring in August. Heavily. Total loss. Driver was hurt. They don't like that to be known in the public.

Porsche has no contest.

Because that's communication. Story telling. The way they've chosen. I quite like this style. But they failed before, that's the problem...

+1

Even if I don't agree with all he's saying reagrding communications, I have biggest respect for the style he's posting here, page after page, always again. What patience. He doesn't deserve to be attacked in that rude kind of way.

 

If you converse with people the way Erik has you may just get some responses that are less than friendly.

If you don't think he has been rude at times, please re-read some of his posts.

 

While I believe the P1 can do sub 7 I'd only ask why would you believe them?

Because they said so?


If they release a video proving their claims great they've backed up their claim and they save some dignity.


If they go back to the ring, run with video proof not an enhanced snibit from various spots like this past they've only accomplished one thing.

They've proven that NOW and only NOW can they run sub 7.

If they didn't do it the first time and come back and finally achieve this goal they will now look even more the fools saying "see I told you so" with video proof weeks or months later. Everyone is faster the next time on a track. Everyone.


Mac has screwed up and the only way to prove it's for real is a video right now.

It's not about proving us wrong it's about proving themselves correct. The burden of proof lies within Mac and not the other way around. While almost everyone here has stated they believe the Mac can do it. Great. The Mac should be able to it's a 7 figure car.

I find AJ's post above the best example of Mac finding it necessary to give video PROOF when they feel like it. LOL. They just don't feel like it now? Give me a break. The F1 was a car that threw everyone into a tail spin. Stupid fast. Great looking. They hit a homerun. Never tarnished from the start like the P1 is now.

The P1 sold on the shirt tails of the F1. Guys don't buy these cars to lap the ring. They buy these type of cars to collect which is truly sad. Ferrari knows this and for now has no desire to prove to the world the LaF can go below 7. Most likely because they don't believe it can. Ferrari also doesn't care. Their client base only cares its the latest and greatest Ferrari.

 

This isn't a wise assumption. If this were a two horse race the story might be different from McLaren at this point.

Probably won't matter to you, but do bear in mind the F1 at 391 km/h video was made and released when production of the car was finished. It wasn't a marketing stunt to drive sales like we see with all this baloney at the Ring. They did it just to see what it could do.

That may be all I have time for today - you kids have fun now.

>8^)
ER

 

I didn't question when the F1 video came out. It came out when they laid the claim for fastest production car.

 

bingo!

 

Actually that's not true at all. They laid claim to the title way back in 1993 with a lap of the Nardo Ring at 231 MPH in XP3. No video though, so that probably didn't happen.

>8^)
ER

 

it did happen, but apparently not with a production car

 

So they held the world speed record in 1993 then? Their word was enough?

 

Neither car they used for top speed testing was a production car. XP3 in 1993 and XP5 in 1995. XP3 was actually down on power a bit when the first test occurred. XP5 had been upgraded to full production spec by the time it did its lap at Ehra Lessien.

XP2R - one of the P1s earliest prototypes is the one they have lapped the Ring with.

Before you go crying foul on McLaren for that, this is the standard for nearly every manufacturer - again proving the point that these lap times are rather pointless.

They all claim they are production spec, except for Nissan who comes back a week later to clarify all the changes they made to the NISMO GTR to get it to run their 7:08 lap. But oh wait, "We're going to offer that stuff as an Options Package."

Seriously - you make a special edition car like the NISMO GTR and then there's an option package that changes the brakes, the suspension, the aero pack, the seats and probably a host of other little tweaks just to get your lap time around the Ring? Nope, they weren't kidding.

>8^)
ER

 

I wasn't. The F1 is beautiful in concept and in execution. Perhaps the car that is most true to it's nature of a hypercar.

A Nismo GTR in Green Hell Limited Edition? I am sure that something like that will sell.

 

Yeah - they put out a press release and the whole world believed them. Unfathomable, I know...

Probably wasn't good enough for Guinness, but I don't recall there ever being any great doubts raised. Of course we didn't really have the internet back then where every armchair keyboard jockey with an opinion gets to weigh in on the situation and tell the world what they think.

An interesting piece of memorabilia related to that first effort came up on Ebay back in 2004.

>8^)
ER
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Considering the world believed their word in 1993 they probably just made it official then and didn't bother to prove it in 1998 eh?

Press release and case closed in 1993.

 

Sure, it is marketable, but why not just make the NISMO GTR the Green Hell Edition from the start. The logic of spending time to develop a high performance version of your already high performance car that then needs to be modified quite extensively to put out maximum performance around one circuit for the sake of a headline is kind of lost on me.

>8^)
ER

 

McLaren nuts ... Oh the irony!

 

OK, I watched the video. Very cool. Great shots, the engine sounds great and I love the livery of the car.

Just one thing is missing . . . a lap time. Where is it?

As Ted Turned once said . . . "It ain't bragging if you can do it."

 

The only positive here in my view is that if this is some sort of PR stunt, then when the lap time is released we'll all be awed.

 

God I hope not. I have no doubt P1 put up a staggering number at Nurburgring. But to go through all this nonsense about it all I would find infuriating.

I'm more an admirer than a fan of McLaren. I like the rivalry between them and Ferrari because both brands will grown stronger. But even as a guy who can only dream of owning LaFerrari or P1, I don't like being jerked about.

I would perceive of a Ring lap time being 'officially released' at a later date as jerking me around.

If you did, show it. Let us all congratulate you so we can get on with another subject

 

So if Ring lap times are irrelevant or not representative, which track would be a better benchmark? How about Spa? That's a decent length with a good variety of high/low speed bends and lots of elevation change.

 

I personally never said lap times at any circuit are irrelevant. It is relevant if McLaren or Ferrari says it is to them. So by all means, go to the Ring, Spa, Monza, Daytona or wherever and set the best time possible. If you happen to lap faster than anyone else, by all means celebrate. Make videos, posters, t-shirts. Go nuts.

But in my mind…..DON'T begin by telling me that the Ring is relevant because you will be the fastest……go to the Ring and run…...often…..then come back and tell me going for record laps at The Ring is not safe so we won't tell you our time…….then release a video saying "of course we went under 7 minutes." And all the while never tell us what you have actually done! And to top it off, Porsche stepped up to the plate, ran their lap, recorded it and posted a time for us all to admire, and did it all with what seems to be a rather reserved humbleness. The Porsche video of their Nurburgring lap wasn't fancy or narrated or well produced. It was however the truth. It was important to Porsche, and they showed us all how much. I admire the f#ck outta that.

And that is what makes me upset as a regular Joe who just happens to love cars. McLaren, in a rather underhanded, sneaky way, is allowing the public to ASSUME that their effort was greater than Porsche's. Without stating the REALITY (as Porsche has done), they are plying on the POSSIBILITY. And apparently only a handful of people alive seem to know the truth.

And that seems totally unfair to what Porsche has done at the Ring. Porsche spent the time and money and took the risk to man and machine and showed us all where they stood, without much fanfare I have to add. And McLaren comes along with all the bluster and bravado and PR lighting bolts and 2nd and 3rd party advocates and slick, near Hollywood level mini movies and undercuts that brave REAL effort by Porsche with what amounts to……the 'suggestion' that they were faster. The friggin' SUGGESTION!?

That is a bit galling to me. And if in another few weeks or even in a few years, if it is revealed that P1 stormed the Ring at a time that would make the ghost of Bellof wince, it would matter to me personally about as much as a chipmunk farting in a windstorm.
Because I don't like being jerked around.

With every page that was posted on this subject I thank god Ferrari was never fully intrenched in this.

 

qft

Porsche ...........There is no substitute.