Look keep it open until we all get our In and Out Burgers.. Please I'm hungry
Now that this thread has been re-opened (mods, maybe it should now be moved into a different forum)..It would be interesting to continue with the photos and info Audiman44 could provide, if he is interested. Lets try to keep the mudslinging at a minimum if possible. I and hope a few others, find this interesting regardless of everything else surrounding the story.
I follow your thinking about moving the thread as I think we now have strong evidence that this vehicle was never a lambo and certainly not the Geneva show car...which were really the two assertions that brought this thread to life and were the catalysts for such heated debate. I actually hope the thread stays here and that the debate is allowed to go on. I have been pretty animated in my posts but the frustration I have had is how or why a sponsor such as roy has been allowed to essentially been able to represent a car as something it clearly never was (he represented the car emphatically as a matter of fact) and apparently get to go to the bank as a result of his false representations? my question to the mods, consultants or owners would be, is there any pressure that should be placed on the sponsor to recant his representations now that a very different story/history seems to have manifested itself regarding this jeep? is f-chat potentially exposed in any way due to the false marketing of this car on this site? honest points and questions I hope...sans mudslinging !!
oh mods, I thought we were done with this thread Move this POS thread out of the Lamborghini area. Again, it has nothing to do with Lamborghini and was nothing but trouble for many members.
I have yet to see an apology for the misrepresentations. Thread should stay in Lambo section. It is a valuable record of a piece of Lamborghini lore.
Amazing who some will see ONLY what they want to see. There are no apologies given nor needed. As Audiman44 has stated (re-read), IT was from the factory in Michigan..what he fails to add is, as far as I am concerned well documented: 1) The real 100% Cheetah WAS returned to the USA..it was NEVER wrecked in a Desert, there is no question to this fact. 2) The real Cheetah WAS sold to the company in Michigan and delivered to them with all rights to it and its engineering, ANOTHER fact that has been documented. 3) The Michigan company made 3 prototypes, AGAIN a fact and documented. 1 was a troop carrier, 1 was an ambulance 1 was as the original Cheetah, as WELL as the original Cheetah that was reversed engineered for the prototypes. 4) A FACT when the company went belly up, ALL the vehicles were sold..but ONLY after the were cut up into sections, as well as wheels, motors, all parts etc etc were taken apart to be sold as individual pieces not as a whole. 5) The auction took place and was completed. 6) The vehicle in question, I am sure Audiman44 can add to this, WAS welded back together and pieced back together from multiple pieces bought at the Auction. 7) There is strong multiple evidence that this "put back together" vehicle has MANY of the original pieces of the Geneva truck AS IT WAS sold to the Michigan Company. I.E, tires, taillights, motor, some instrument pieces, some body parts as was verified by the ORIGINAL builder due to KNOW identification marks. THAT vehicle was, as we have proven beyond question was sold to the Michigan Company. Even as Audiman44 states, the tires kept loosing air from the original wheels..yes, of course, we all know that because the original design required an INNER air tub so as the wheels would still go on the run flat theory..WISH he would have never thrown those wheels away, he just did not know what they needed to work correctly. SO, as I stated in this thread as it moved along and as we learned things.. Is it 100% the Cheetah that left the Geneva show...NO Is it 100% the Prototype built by the Michigan Company....NO Is it a placed back together vehicle that maintains multiple parts from the ORGINAL Cheetah as presented on the Geneva floor......YES As another little bit of info..the HOOD alone on the truck had the 3 holes in it where the "Lamborghini" shield was placed on it in the show, by as we all KNOW the Factory and was not condoned by the 1st builder. IT WAS removed once back here to the states and holes filled prior to being sold and transferred to the Michigan Company, as multiple other items on the truck we were able to verify as to being the ORGINAL items from the ORGINAL truck at the show. To what extent and to what value it carries, is for each to decide on their own via their due diligence... Nothing more, nothing less
I honestly do not know how to respond to this. the personification of a used car salesman is as best as I could characterize.
Roy: Len's testimony does not seem to fit well with your assertions that the "made by Pioneer" Cheetah may have some significant parts of the Geneva Cheetah which was painted sand. It is still a cool truck though.
I think you are all missing one point.. the vehicle Len has spoken about DID NOT LEAVE the Michigan plant as ONE WHOLE truck..which I am sure he can agree to this..it left in Multiple parts and was THEN RE-Assembled. So there is question as to WHERE the pieces came from..which I agree, some came from the prototype the Michigan factory made (off of the Cheetah) and some, IMO (more then less) came from the original Cheetah which the Michigan company HAD AS well and HAD chopped up as they did the other ones prior to the aucti0on sale.. So PARTS came from multiple vehicles, to what extent..I don't think every little piece can be accounted for..but quite a few have been verified to have come from the original truck from day one. So is it 25% 50% 75% each will have to make their own educated answer. It IS NOT 100% the Geneva Truck..I have no problem with that..but IT DOES have multiple pieces of it, and IMO, most of the important pieces of it.. It is a restored vehicle...just like multiple prototype vehicles that get found in pieces in barns everyday and are put back together..with MULTIPLE new and re-manufactured parts. Happens every day with 1 of Corvettes, Mustangs, Shelbys....and the list goes on...
Is there a reward for the one that posts the 1000th post ? Maybe a ride in the vehicle ? (Let's all pray it's Karlton then )
Well, miracles do happen.....lol! I know some of you don't share my sentiment, but I did want to make a few comments before the wake of this thread is celebrated ;-D My thanks go to the moderator(s) and those of you who think the story of this unique find is interesting. Well, first of all, what Roy said about it being a hybrid certainly seems plausible. When we found out that the original had not been destroyed, it kind of dampened our belief that this one was probably the ONLY surviving example - which in itself would make it very unique - even if it was not the original. We could see that the dash did not have the defroster vents and padding as did the original, and the shell was aluminum - not fiberglass. Later on, Rod (original builder) told us that the original never had a fiberglass shell. The seats were different too (upholstery). At any rate, we did not believe it was the original. The original owner told Larry that he had bought it from Teledyne in pieces, and put it back together out of the parts that were available. There was no engine compartment cover, windshield, rear seats (which would have had no frames, just upholstery that would have been held in place over the two fuel tanks with Velcro), no outside mirrors, and no winch. There was a canvas top and two canvas doors (but it appeared that the doors had never been attached). There was a grille on the top rear deck for additional cooling. Larry said that it had been installed by the original owner, so he removed it and covered the opening. He said that it was not original, and it allowed water to get into the engine compartment. An interesting thing.......Rod asked if there were tie-down/slinging eyes on the tub, which there were. I don't know what the significance of that was. I see by looking back on the specs in the brochure, they would have been installed on the production vehicle, and they would have to have been there when the unit was shipped. Most of the pics in the brochure of the original do not show these eyes as being attached, but one photo of the Cheetah catching air on top of a dune does show these eyes being present. Only Rod knows........lol. What Roy has said about original parts being incorporated into this example is entirely possible. When I was sanding - I can't remember whether it was the tub or the front shell - I recall seeing what I took to be a tan color. Larry said he never saw anything like that. I did [I did more sanding than Larry did too ;-)]. I just figured that it was primer - although I did not see any more like that. Pretty sketchy - can't make much out of it of course, but it haunts me a little! I also recall a patch on the underside of the front hood which puzzled me, as I was not thinking of it being one of the original parts at all. It was toward the front, so it is possible that it covered some holes. I recall that distinctly. I could not figure out why that patch was there. The battery compartment was made to hold two 12 volt batteries, 12v for the vehicle, and 24v for the radio equipment. As I said before, the thing had been stored outside under a tarp, then inside for several years. When we started it up for the first time, there came blasting out of the exhaust pipes remnants of a mouse house - along with seeds, etc. It was somewhat hilarious! lol I don't have many more pics (wish I did - especially what it looked like when we started). I'll look to see if I have anything to post. I am also going to try to talk with the original owner to see what more I can find out, but I'm not too confident that this thread will be open much longer! Len Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I would like to post this article also, as it gives some interesting historical information on the development and plans for the Cheetah. For those otherwise inclined, there is some info on the Ford/Philips Stirling engine for your perusal! Len Image Unavailable, Please Login
Found on the internet: These are the second (1980 prototype, bottom right) , third (1981 prototype, bottom left), and fourth (1982 prototype, top) Teledyne HMMWV prototypes. Obviously Teledyne soon realized what AM General found with the XR311 (after which the Cheetah was patterned) and what Lamborghini will find later: it's better to put the engine upfront. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Good post WilyB. It plainly illustrates why the Cheetah became extinct. Almost makes me a believer in Darwinism.
Yep, there it is... Lot's of misrep there... That's the very first post in the thread. Just say you forgot, that's more believable. So, cut? Not cut? Geneva? Not Geneva? Just the one? More than one?
