David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

you have said this many times before and as many times it has been said that it is ludicrous that Enzo Ferrari has personaly entrusted Piper with the legacy of the P4 by giving him the green light for the 0900's. Enzo Ferrari had no interest in the legacy of obsolete racingcars.

And it can't be argued that whatever is on 0858 today, it is not quite flawless where the shape of the P4 is concerned. Jim and Sal Barone would do a better job at consulting than Piper has done. If I had given Piper the consultancy job, I would be less than pleased with the outcome. But perhaps I shouldn't be surprised. Piper knows his way around Ferrari's, but nothing he has done, is done for the better of the Ferrari legacy. Which is fine, he isn't responsible for the Ferrari legacy. Allthough you seem to believe otherwise.

 

Thanks George.
Perhaps we'd all be happier if David had a bigger role.


Perhaps not.

 

That's strange.

It appears that during the panel beating process Talacrest were also working on a Rolls Royce (Reg: GH 2846, who's coachwork was done by GP Panelcraft of Blacknell) for another classic car dealer (Vintage & Prestige of Essex) as evidenced by their own images, for them to then send it to Piper's work space pre-paint, to yet another shop to actually paint and then back to Piper's workspace and head mechanic 'Stubby'.

Not so sure naming Talacrest the restorer is quite accurate considering unless you have information confirming otherwise.

 

oh sh-t! we passed 2500; now we're going to have to suffer until post 3000.

reminds me of the tale recounted by the late Honourable William Hughes Mulligan, Judge of the United States Court of Appeals, 2d Circuit, when addressing the annual St Patrick's Eve dinner of the Society of the Friendly Sons of St Patrick in the City of New York, a club that dates to 1784. In accepting a prestigious award, Judge Mulligan began:

Friends and Friendly Sons, my thanks to you all, and I shall try to avoid the example of that tedious speaker who simply would not stop talking. It got so bad that whenever he paused the audience applauded vigorously, implying that they desired an end to his speech. On he went. By and by the toastmaster tugged at the speaker's coat and gave the clear finger across the throat signal. Speaker smiled down and droned on. Toastmaster passed him a note reading: "please end your remarks ASAP". Another smile and nothing for it, he simply would not stop. Finally the toastmaster raised his gavel, aimed a blow at the speaker and swung; he missed and struck the fellow beside him on the temple. As he slid beneath the dais the hapless victim was heard to say:

"Hit me again, I can still hear him!"

 

I was genuinely unaware that Talacrest has restoration facilities, guess one learning something new everyday.

 

Go to the Talacrest web site. tongascrew

 

For?

Their own website has uploaded images of the car in a shop with the Rolls Royce, at a paint shop and at Piper's work space both pre and post paint.

 

See the John Collins interview with D P. Collins seems to be showing Piper the progress of the restoration being done at Talacrest. tongascrew

 

At the very same shop where the Rolls Royce for sale at another dealer (who's coachwork was done elsewhere) is being worked on?

Again, I would find that odd. The car then spends time at Piper's workshop, onto yet another shop to paint and back to Piper's.(evidenced by their own uploaded images)

To call Talacrest the restorer in this project is a stretch.Their own uploads undermines that statement. Also you still have yet to provide any cars Talacrest have restored that weren't outsourced despite your claim that they are widely respected restorers.

If you were a highly respected restorer and could offer that service would you not care to mention that on your own website?

Talacrest are a highly successful and respected dealer and they could probably help facilitate a wonderful restoration somewhere. I wouldn't exactly describe them as a restorer. They don't even do that themselves.

 

Apparently the facts in this thread are wrong. P4's were shaped with an English wheel and the motor is original....

Fact or fiction....

David Piper talks about how he approached the Ferrari 330 P4 #0858 rebody -- Part 3 - YouTube

They say they went out of their way to achieve perfection, which I would have to think anyone taking on this scope of a project would, Maybe I'm wrong? but to me, there is no denying that the shape of the body is way off in the shot at 0:23 into the video. Or the first pic here...

http://www.talacrest.com/ferrari330p4/gallery_postrestoration.asp

I don't think I'm being biased when I say that it does not look like a genuine P4.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=640691852611688&set=a.640691809278359.1073741826.509931435687731&type=3&l=0ab6038c3f&theater

The van at the very top of the image belongs to Cambell & Kennedy, who's southern office just so happens to be on the same industrial estate that GP Panelcraft has a shop (the company that completed the coachwork on the Rolls Royce to be found in the background in the Talacrest restoratation images)

Again, the idea that Talacrest are the restorer is a stretch considering the above.

 

Yes I do and to date no one has shown me any specific cause to change.tongascrew

 

Listen carefully to D P in this interview. He was there at least during part of the creation.According the him the English wheel was used in part by Drogo. Pictures can be deceiving but as D P was there and had years of experience with the original cars, the fact he is satisfied with the results with 0858 I think his opinions are acceptable.His comments about the modifications to the original engine when installed in the Can Am car are spot on particularly in the increase in c/c and the minimal additional power created. This was satisfactory for the events in New .Zealand and South Africa but in no way competitive for CanAm I particularly enjoyed is comments about starting the engine in cold weather. It reminded me of the Bugatti drivers in the 1920s/30s who would drain the engine oil out, warm it up on a stove and put it back in before starting. As I have said before on several occasions David Piper has accumulated more years of on and off track experience with the P cars than anyone. Those critical of him need keep their stones in their pockets and look beyond the class walls of their houses. tongascrew

 

Still I think it's rather odd that someone who has modified so many Ferraris into limp creatures is involved in bringing back one to it's 'original form'...

 

Interesting video to be sure. Are there no period photos from when #0858 was a P4 to compare its current shape to?

 

That interview with David Piper is no doubt in my mind a direct response to the allegations made in this thread about 0858. Its contents have been read and noted by the owners/restorers and it is their reply to the detractors.

Straight from the horses mouth of the man who was there, and who still owns one.

M'laud I rest my case.

 

DP is about the $$$, just look at the Mark Hales incident. Additionaly when DP got his fame was an era when no one cared about orginality, he is from a different school.

Whatever anyone says, a car which was factory period intact and as raced, was hacked into a semi replica of a quality which would not count even as a nut and bolt recreation. This is nothing to do with preserving history or lineage or everance and everyhting to do with $$$, lets not pretend differently.

I hope they saved all the can am bits, because one day, in a more enlightened age, having the only 1 of something will be worth more than a semi Ok pastiche.

 

Nobody gives Walter Medlin any respect, IMO, (not that he needs it, he's fine) but at least he is about saving the cars.

He might save a little too long, for my taste.
But the post above is correct this car was "one of one" in it's CanAm livery

 

Letting the cars rot for decades is not the same as "saving" them. Each car that came out of Medlins hands needed a total restoration to be driveable. Also 0858 hadnt been in Medlins actual property for years before it came to its current owners.

 

1. DP is/was not the owner of 0858. You make it sound like it was DPs idea to return it to P4. Thats highly doubtful.

2. As for the "hack job"....many people including myself consider the CanAm car a hack job in the first place.

3. 0858 will never be seen as CanAm again. Neither will 0844 nor 0860. There are still quite a few more original P4 parts around. A more likely option is that one day 0858 will be re-restored using more genuine P4 parts and correcting the obvious problems in its current state.

 

You do know who is responsible for deciding to turn 0858 into a Canam car, only months after it was released in it's P4 configuration? You do know who actually executed it?

Sure, the car turned out to be outclassed by McLarens and Chevrons and what not, but how is this a hack job?

And who are these 'many people'? Anyone among them who could be accused of having some decent knowledge and understanding of Ferrari history?

who are you to decide?

 

Yes and yes.

Because its not car design on its own right. Its a P4 with some mods to the frame, a cut down body and a bored out engine (doesnt even apply to all of them...0844 has always been 330). The core of this car is a P4.

The late owner of 0860 maybe for starters?

 

DP from what I can tell is a old racing driver of some charm when he chooses to be charming. Enzo sold him some obsolete cars in a buisness deal. That was probably a great deal for Enzo as he was known to otherwise crush old racing cars, like the sharknoses.

We are talking about an era when old cars were just that, old cars. Some peopel loved them for purely for what they were, but if you collected or bought old cars back then it was a hobby based on taste and appreciation, not a financial proposition.

Since then cars and old cars in particular have become Objets D art. We revere them for their historical importance, as industrial art, as evocative of what we imagine to be more optomistic eras. We also enjoy older cars because thye offer an experince and style moderns seem to lack. They are no longer just old industrial products, but expresiins of out motive civilization.

I would argue that when Piper became the keeper of the P3s Enzo was selling old cars, not entrusting Piper as the sole keepr of the P flame. Pipers passions were more using driving and revenue geberation than is the norm today with old cars. Nowadays its more about authentic preservation, and assett protection/appreciation.

No one really cares too much about a ratty model A ford becomming a rod, there are still enough about. Actualy some do care even about that, if its to take an unmolested A or T as left the factory and turn it into a Rod.

Fearraris are far fewer in number, the sacriledge that much greater. Once something origional from period is lost, it cant be brought back.

I would also argue, that at this point in time racing "origional" cars is no different than what Piper had a hand in doing, basicaly destroying or at least defacing a historic artifact in the pursuit of $$ and ego. There are alternatives today for racing, sanction recreations, same machine trechnicaly same fun, and hisitorics get preserved, that is if you really care. Good to see that at Goodwood a fair number of the Gt40s being raced were gelescoe cars, basicaly total new builds. And yes i know most historic racers tooday have been crashed so many times they are in relaity new cars, all the more reason to preserve the few origional pieces left.


Whoever buys such a machine as this P3 is not a collecter, but an ego driven hoarder of poor taste and asthetic appreciation, and talcrest is not a purveyor of exotics/fine art more than a high end used car dealer of the lowest form. That its a sucessful business and a profitable transcation does not alter this reality.

Times and perpectives change. Today we generaly decry cutting up old 250 coupes into GTO's and these cars are shunned. 30 years ago old 250 coupes were rusty machines somewhat plentiful and not worth much, cutting them preserved something from the scrapper. Time changes things. Today you can have anew build Gto without destroying.

If in the 60's or erly 70s a can am was turned into a p4, well a Gto was alo an old 7k race car then, pebble beach did not have apreservation class either, american restorations were all shiney and ran like crap. Things and views evolve and mature.

Cutting up the last of 1, in what is a more enlightened age, when we revere orgionality, preservation, and appreciate ferrari history very differently, is just plain wrong.

 

Because its not car design on its own right. Its a P4 with some mods to the frame, a cut down body and a bored out engine (doesnt even apply to all of them...0844 has always been 330). The core of this car is a P4.



The late owner of 0860 maybe for starters?[/QUOTE]

But these mods as you put it were done in period at the factory and the car was raced this way by the factory. Now its a halp period half modern pastiche. Yes many historic racers are even less origional from crashes, but this car was far more complete with period pieces just a few years ago.

Look at the lighweight etype restorations where they preserve and starighten crumpled alumnum to keep as much period metal as possible, even though when painted it looks the same, what happened here is the opposite.

 

This goes both ways.

As much as you need proof That Enzo didn't entrust/pass on the P4 legacy to DP we need proof that he did.

You always talk about facts but once again you are just stating opinion as facts.

Until then it is just an empty statement with no bearing in the land of reality.

Well said BOXERMAN. These are historical artifacts, not arm charms.

Also does it seem plausible That Allegretti and Drogo got an English wheel from Piper and then just started using it out of the box with no real experience to shape any part of the P4 when they were proficient in their methods?

This statement and the whole video was obviously produced to combat what was said in this thread. So I guess I'm looking to clear up what is fact vs. fiction? Afterall a big part of the history of these cars is what actually happened. And I feel that is important to get straight for the future generations that will be taking care of these cars long after we are gone.
?... Does anyone feel that the shape of this car is correct for a real P4?