I think I'm done with Ferrari

I have said this before, yes people do change. I used to get such a thrill from just driving one of my cars mostly because I did not have much else in my life that pleased me. Then came my divorce. I then met the most amazing women in the world, started to write novels, and my twin boys started to live with me half the time. Now my thrill is her smile, watching my boys grow up, wondering if this next novel will touch readers like the other two did, and helping those less fortunate than I am. Sorry but no car can come close to that!

 

I have always loved the connection of the sound, performance, appearance, and smell of my cars. It can be quite rejuvenating. I do agree things do change and directions change. While I still enjoy the cars, I don't like I used to. I still am hooked on motorcycles and find them therapeutic for my soul.

 

Bob, I asked you about your last three Ferrari's. To be fair, you didn't like the last one so that doesn't count. You didn't answer the mileage question on those either.

Regardless, you posted some incredibly positive comments about the 458 Italia some of which have been re-posted. This indicates that you in fact did change or sour and become jaded.

Everyone is entitled to change their mind and have their opinions.

My point is that it is you and not Ferrari that has changed. The award of most powerful brand just made it obvious. Despite their short comings Ferrari has never been more on top of their game then now.

 

Smart ass... Guilty.

Ferrari is delivering on the "service, the story, and the premise of the purchase" more now then ever before. Their cars are mostly benchmarks for the competition.

I believe most buyers of Ferraris who have purchased in the past would agree that Ferrari is delivering the best product and service ever.

As an example the more recently introduced 7 years free maintenance. This may not seem like much, but it is a major improvement in service.

The performance and quality of Ferrari has never been better and it's not even close. In other words, Ferrari is delivering on the promise and the first ever strongest brand recognition is just further proof of that.

Sorry, smart ass or not it is the Mayor whom has changed (soured/ jaded), NOT Ferrari.

 

Well put.

Lets look at Porche, the Cayenne was meant to be the death knell. But posrche also built the 911 and in particular the GT3 which kept the brand Kudos alive. Because of some racing, a strong club track sceene and a few superlative cars porche still has cred, and the sportscar brand(with its volume products) sustains itself on that cred.

Now lets look at ferrari and what built that cred. True in the past its street car performace releative to others stood out more. Performance has been democratised. Ferrari also always had stying and mechanical complexity/symphony plus a build process thata set it apart from mass produced items. Fearri also raced in many classes a number of which were directly applicable to road cars.

Now lets look at ferrari today. Its a cynical marketing excecise very well executed. With rare exceptions the styling today is shock value more than georgeous and stunning. the cars are not primarily built for gentlemen racers and driving enthusiasts. They are built for a wealthy clientale for which the ferrari is another object of aquistion. They are easy to use as this is the level of most current owners and the target market. The performance has to be very good because buyers read specs. As to the driving experience, well it has to acclerate hard, have great paper specs and be easy to drive.

A new ferrari does not have to be "enjoyable" to drive in the traditional sense. It does not have to be durable on track, or even very trackable. Its performance on track is going to be compared to other ferraris in a ferrari club, and there is no regard to track maintainability.

the racing cred comes from F1, which has marketing relevance but little relevance to building a fast enjoyable to drive street/trackday car.

So if you are a gentleman driver, track day enthiusiast or sports driver a ferrari may be fun, but there are probably far better objective and subjective choices today.

The ingredients that go into a new ferrari means they have the pieces to make a really great "fun" road car, they just dont, and they still have plenty of clients lining up. The product is not what it was and does no ocupy the same place.

Maclaren may have given ferrari a run for their money, but they too went for paper spec over the full driving experience. The action today for the type of people who were "traditional old" ferrari owners is in moded cars, or build up your own, like a SPF Gt40.

The world is dfiferent too. the days of runnign fast on the open road are pretty much over in most places. Sprots cars in my book need to be fun at all speeds, an experience that is an occasion, reliable and also durable for trackdays. The closest modern car to this ideal I can think of is the last Gt3, which to drive is IMHO way way way better than any 458 in terms of fun, tactility experience and realisticaly on track(even if its paper spec is less)

I think ferrari would do well to market such a elemental machine. You know somethign like a modern incarnation of a 288, which in period was an 84k car from the factory. Maybe its a good buisness model to make a product for the core enthusiast, ultimatly its the foundation of the brand. And this foundation is why the hedge fund guys, telcom old farts and Chinese believe ferrari is something more than it is.

 

I think your comments above are largely inaccurate.

Ferraris have always been relatively overpriced relative to the performance of the competition. They have alway been primarily sold to wealthy clients. I paid $88K in 1989 for a new 8 cylinder Ferrari. I would guess, compounding at ~5+% a year would get you to about $300k today. In other words, relatively the same cost.

The Testarossa was introduced in the 1980's. That car had shock value (almost 30 years ago), but I still like it. The 458 is classic, elegant yet also modern. In other words, nothing has changed.

Regarding driving on the roads... It just depends where you are. Speed limits have been lower in the past. Roads weren't as well made or maintained in the past. The regulations in the 70's were dreadful.

The GT3 is a better track car. The standard Ferrari's are intended for the road. Ferrari too has special models for track and competition.

The 288 GTO was produced in very small numbers (272). The origin of the car had nothing to do with the enthusiast. If Ferrari's customers really wanted what that car embodies Ferrari would have moved in that direction. They didn't and they were right. That car is special/ sought after because it's different and more importantly, very rare.

I think Ferrari knows what they're doing and they are doing it quite well. You cannot please everyone all the time and Ferrari IS pleasing their growing customer base just fine. The proof is in the results which have never been better.

 

I think your comments are proof that there are two very different cutromer bases.


Yes the TR had shock value. It was built for the "fat" Us market. One of the first newer ferraris that had no real style, more shock, a product of side radiators on boxer platform to get good ac. Other than the faithful the Tr is not coveted today, even though they are a great buy. Your basic 308/328 is far more classic and better looking, and this is reflected in 328's being priced higher than Trs to the enthusiuast/used market.

As to price, others have commented that ferraris are overpriced, I have not said that, but yeah for an enthusuiast who is focused on the drive, they may be indexed to inflation the same price but they are overpriced for what they offer, at least to the driving enthuisiast. And in the past they relatively offered a lot more in terms of driving experience.

The 288 was the accidental ferrari, the car was made for group b requirements, they were even wondering how they were going to sell it. . They were shocked/surprised at market demand and 2nd hand prices. Ferrari had assumed there was no market for such a raw performance orientated car. I think there were 1499 F40s made, probably the rawest of fferraris and those all sold at a premium, so I think there really is a market for a raw ferrari.

Now they have taken the concept not where the 288/F40 was but into the rarified realm of electric pricey tech rarity and spec numbers. Yeah the laferraris sells, because hey its a brand now and the so called collectable one. But seriously I would rather have a 288/F40?F50 over an enzo of laferrari anyday, and I am not alone.

Yes had the the 288 been a regular production item it would not have sold as well as a TR, becase as we have noted most ferris sell on shock and ease of use, but it would be highly coveted today still, and if not worth 1.8 mill if say 2000 produced, it would still be worth more than purchase price, and way more than a TR. In fact how are F40 prices doing with 1499 produced. The companies street reputation is built on raw cars like this and the enthusiasts who use them.

Yes in the past you had to be wealthy to buy a ferrari, at least a new one. But you also had to know how to drive and take care of a car, and you had to like speed, because that is mostly what ferrari offered. When I talk about speed on the road, i am not talking about a quick blast up to 120 mph or even 140mph. I am talking about using acar on a mountain working the car and road in synch, or using a car to crush distances between cities. This certainly does not happen in Florida, maybe Montana but realisticaly not int he USA or China.

As to the 458, yes it is generaly acclaimed to be beautiful, and is the first truly beautiful ferrari since probably the 456. The others in the lineup are shock, or fat assed ugly and have bene for a while.

Look at a Dino or 308, classic timelss beauty, same applies to the 458, but there is a big gap there, and a 458 is mostly boring to drive unless you live on the autobahn, and ridiculously expensive to run on track. Some of us here, ant a raw car like a 288, and we dont mind sacrificing nth degree paper performance, it should be a little diffcult to use, but reward a skilled hand at most spoeeds like no other, relatively simple and robust so that with sympathetic maintanace the big bits will be robust and durable for years of trackday use.

A modern ferrari is a highly stylised marketing plan that drives everyday like a hyundai, has great fake engine sounds, great spec numbers, is mostly unseable for fun in any street enviorment, subpar on track, not really durable when used hard. But yeah it looks "great" and is easy to use as an everyday drive to the valet park at the club. Yeah the Tr was the first of this breed, even if by todays standards its a little on the raw side.

Horses for courses. Me i want a viceral raw weekend toy. i really dont care how it parks or rdes in stop go traffic.

 

1984 288GTO: No shock value? Classic design (because it's old)? It does not look like a classic Ferrari to me. Classic, smooth, sexy flowing curves? No, that was the 308/ 328. This was the angular, angry, shocking version.
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I largely agree with you here. There are two different customer bases. Ferrari is focused on serving the one that delivers the most business, the customers that made them the strongest brand of not just all car manufacturers, but ALL companies of any kind. Pretty big title.

The 288 was the accidental Ferrari. Ferrari then realized there was a market for the specialty cars in limited numbers at astronomical prices.

Classic Ferraris like all classic cars are in part appreciated because of the nostalegia affect. They aren't necessarily better. They are part of history.

Buy what you like. For me, since I can only have one, I prefer the modern, fast, classic looking 458 with the comforts, luxury, and reliability that it offers. I will drive this car enthusiastically and no one will be able to wipe the big smile off of my face. Not even the mayor!

 

I agree with you 110%.

 

The cars are big as Buicks..

The one thing I give props to Ferrari for on their newer cars is the interiors..nice.

As far as driving experience; gotta say I'm part admirer of rolling art, part boyracer, gentlemen racer and still that high school kid who likes to do doughnuts in parking lots. As a younger man I wanted to be all these guys in a Ferrari. First sight of a Daytona, age 9, at local tennis courts fresh in my brain as a dreamlike and surreal encounter. Today none of the current offerings call to me.

No gate shifters? A hybrid??? Yea!!! Bloated cream puffs..that's what their offering today IMO.

 

This thread is simultaneously terrible and fantastic.

 

Fantastic thread....I thought I'd chime in...For some reason, Ferrari has lost touch with what a "sports car" should be. The new cars are HUGE. The bumpers and all the plastic crap are HUGE...twice the size of some of the older sports cars. No longer are the days of a nice, small, nimble, two seater that you can really enjoy on the back roads...This concept is long gone. Look at the older cars like the Dino, 308, or Alfas. Not fast by today's standards, but boy are they fun to drive and the lines are simply beautiful.
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All because the manufacturers want us to remain safe in their creations
Ludicrous



Ferrari, Porsche, Mac etc etc can't win this battle.

They need to create a car that looks better than their competitors on paper yet satisfies the fussy old time car guys at the same time. This can't happen.

If you want an old time 3 pedal drivers car buy one.

If you want a car that's lightning fast and can beat all it's competitors for that given year buy one of those.

You can't have both anymore.


Ferrari will always have customers just like LV and Chanel will always sell purses and Patek and A Lange will always sell watches.

These are luxury items now and nothing else.

The Corvette ZR1 is an insanely good car and priced at $120k is 1/3rd the price of a medium optioned 458 Spider yet it doesn't say Ferrari on it's side.

Reason left the building 10 years ago on these cars. It just took "The Mayor" a little more time to realize it (example only Sir)




EDIT Mikey P that's a great color on your 3x8 car right there. Very nice!

 

I agree with that with one exception... "Reason" left a lot longer than 10 years ago.

In other words, nothing has recently changed with Ferrari and they are delivering the best product in their history and it shows.

 

I should have said 15 years ago but I was more in reference to pricing and nothing else.

 

They are delivering the most financialy sucessful product, this does not necessarily mean the best, or its only one measure of best.

What some of us are saying is no problem with the current offerings, but at the sime time how about building somethign for the true blue enthusiast, modern car thta is sill all about what ferrari used to be about.

. Some will say this is not really a market. Yet the 288 could have sold 4x the number and the f40 did. The 288 when it came out was 84k slighly less than a Tr not insanely expensive. Plus Lotus managed to sell 3000 elises in the USA alone, so yes there is a market. lastly serving this market which is a core creates "brand" kudos.

The regular 250 coupes may fetching big prices because of the BRAND. But what we think of in terms of the core ferrari brand value came from cars like the 250 swb and GTO. Lets put the GTO aside, so few made, a 250 swb was a raw creation at the time and available to everybody, people bought more lusso and PF coupes but it was the SWB that built the street cred.

What we are asking for is the 21st century mid engined version of the 250 swb, made using bits ferrari already has at hand. I will bet such a car will have a far better resale and hold its value long term way way way better than we see with 360's 430's and soon 458's. The modern are ultimatly just obsolete used cars 10 years on. Even 25 years on as we see with the TR/348, they are just used cars.

Whereas even the 328 was somnethig special, it had the look and the magic, they are therefore still highly coveted, and that is the bedrock of the ferrari brand, the coveting of that somethign special both when new and old, I think they have lost that, or dont serve that segment, and they should with at least one model...

Yeah I know Dinos were one 10 k cars and a 250 swb was just a used race car, but it didnt take 25 years for them to be coveted and 25 years later the 348 Tr is still not really coveted.

Anyway all we are saying is give us a modern rendtion of the classics, not aretro car, but acar with the virtues of the classics with modern build and reliability. If Lotus can do it I am sure ferrari can, even if ti needs to be tripple the lotus price.

 

The difference is the I phone has the design and function to back up that porice, whereas at ferrari that is a question.

 

I have been driving lots of cars lately to buy a new DD (see Owner's Forum entitled "Just Ordered a New Car").

Drove a Porsche Panamera with PDk and it was smooth as silk compared to the new 458 DCT. by comparison the Fcar is rawer and faster shifting. I have yet to find a new stock Pcar that sounds anything like the stock 458 even if the Pcar has a "sports exhaust" option.

the Audi is also silky smooth and totally boring to drive. It seems to shift up on its own "to save gas" the salesman said. So I got the S4 with a stick shift and a 333 hp blown 6 cyl engine (0-60 in 5.1 sec.)

Then there is the electronic steering of the Pcar which loses feel and is very smooth compared to the 458.

Bob, you may be comparing today's Fcars with Fcar cars of old. My F355 F1 GTS was great clutch technology for its day but the clutch had to be replaced at 10k miles. My 360 F1 Spider was quicker shifting and lasted longer with a 17k mi replacement. The 458 spider is faster shifting yet but still jerks ahead on upshifts. and it will probably not have to be replaced for the life of the car.

complaints I have read and seen from reviewers re the 12C include lack of a decent steering wheel, lack of feel especially at the limit and a disappointing exhaust engine note compared to the Ferrari.

So it seems that the current Fcars still provide that feel and thrill that sports car buyers crave compared to the current competition. Something has been lost compared to older Fcars but the tradeoffs are: reliability, maintenance hassles, safety and performance. And of course those older desirable models can cost many times the cost of a 458.

At Monterey (Forza #130):
A white Dino 246 GTS sold for a market correct $390k.
A red F40 brought a well above market $1.2 million.
The red F50 commanded a near record $1.7 million. 513 hp and 347 ft lbs of torque. 0-60 3.7 sec. top speed 194 mph.

the 458 will out perform the 3 cars for sure. 562 hp, 398 ft lbs of torque. 0-60 3.4 sec. top speed 202 mph. The older Fcars may be more fun to drive, more driver involvement, but safety issues and repairs loom.

Forza #131: Buying Advice from the Boss.
Budget of $50k buy an F355. (my repair experience was horrendous)
Budget of $100k buy a 550 Maranello
Budget of $150k buy a 430 Scuderia
Budget of $250k buy a 550 Barchetta Pininfarina OR a Scuderia Spider 16M
Budget more than $300k buy a 458 Spider. "Enough said."

 

Does not reconcile.

Why don't you just buy your barely used 458 Italia back? It's cheaper now?

You said this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMayor View Post

"The 458 is great. Period.

It's great because it's a total package of engine, gearbox, and suspension precisely put together to create an amazingly quick, exhilarating, and precise driving experience. It's designed to give you the feeling and sensation of a modern racing machine for the street.

This is what great race car engineering teams do -- they make a great package. Ferrari has always made a great package based on the technology of the TIME. It's not in their nature to stop moving forward.

Putting a manual box in this car is like taking 2 cylinders out of it just to make it slower. It's not its purpose. It's purpose to go faster with more precision and control while generating more thrills and chills when driving it.

There's like 250 thousand Ferrari's out there with manual boxes. If you want a manual box F car, go buy one of them. Just leave those of us who like the 458 for what it is --- and what it is not-- alone.

Now, I love 3 pedal cars. They are quaint and they are fun. So are Pinball machines but people today like killing alien robots on their Xbox better. Manual boxes are not for today's world. They are for yesterday's world like drum brakes and hand crank starters.

There. The end.

People can stop the whining now and move on (but we know they won't)."


ME: The classics have charm. They are not well made and have low performance. They are entertaining. If that's your cup of tea... Go for it.

You on the other hand are buying a new Corvette which has many of the same issues that most modern cars have except for the performance value. Almost all of your other complaints ring hollow regarding modern cars.

It appears your finances have changed or the amount your willing to commit. Either way, it still appears that you have changed. Ferrari on the other hand just keeps moving in the same direction it has for years, improving their products performance and reliability and perfecting their business model.