David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Scaremongering is very taxing I would assume.

 

And there's those who say nothing new and interesting happens in this thread.

 

Nothing new and interesting has happened on this thread for some time now, everyone just seems to keep stating their positions over and over again in every possible context possible without actually stating anything new. As an aside, People have been sued for making seemingly innocuous comments ala Monsieur Olczyk vs Dr. Stu Schaller for some fairly blunt comments on Alfabb back in the day BUT (A) that was "an only in america" thing, (B) Mr. Olczyk was perhaps one of the more err "interesting" people to ever post and (C) you wouldnt sue anyone where it would/ could embarrass the litigant.

I personally keep reading the thread in the ever more depressing hope that someone will have some real, actual properly new information about the "Talacrest p4". Would hate to give up because the thread is nothing but personal slights, innuendo and reptitive statement making.

 

Agreed. Thank You.

 

Do we know who bought it? Any idea of the actual price paid?

Trying to get back to actual details....

 

The fact that the car has sold has limited the seller's claim to damages to the difference between a sale price in which the injurious statement had not been made, and the actual sale price. If the terms of the sale required confidentiality, this is a non-starter. The seller might recover $1 in symbolic damages, but it would sure cost a lot, and for the seller it's all water under the bridge at this point. The buyer, on the other hand, bought the car with the Ferrarichat comments priced in, and therefore could not claim an injury. Only new injurious comments could harm the buyer's interests, and as many have said there is definitely nothing new to be said in this thread.

 

Except for a very select few noone including you and me and the other contributors to this thread have actually " seen" 0858.For the time being I am just pleased that the restoration returned the car to something close to what ever the original P4 was.There is no "original" P3,P4,or P3/4 in existence. If there were it would need a form of. originality similar to something like 0460AM. In the mean time any opinion expressed here has no real creditability and that is exactly why I will not express one at this time. I will leave the final opinions to those far more qualified than I, or you, and with one exception, everyone else on this thread and then only after the car has been examined hands on. tongascrew

 

You are correct that the body new body on 0858 may well owe something to the body on 0900.We need to remember that the body on 0900 is the original body from 0860 which went to David Piper from the Ferrari scrapyard as part of the deal Piper made with Mr Ferrari.I don't have details of the condition this body was in at the time or what was done by Piper in restoring it but one can assume that any influence of the original 0860 body on the new body on 0858 cannot be ignored. tongascrew

 

In Jim G's document on his P4 #0846 it is stated that there are 3 (or is it 4) #0900's and one turned out to be Jim's #0846. Maybe the bodywork was fitted to #0860 and then removed and put on #0900 OR maybe it was another Piper build up with bits and pieces. Maybe one day DP will tell all and some of the smoke and mirrors will disolve, MAYBE.

 

There is only one 0900.That's right just one.The other two I believe are 0901 and 0902. This is just another "maybe" or "what if" or "possibly" type of comment that is so frequent in this thread. Please do the research.Information on these three are in the internet and in print publications. Then comment showing some knowledge of the subject.And yes all three fall into the category of reproductions even though Mr. Ferrari gave the 0900 number to David Paper as part of the deal for all the P3,P4 equipment available at the time at S.F. There are no secrets as to the heritage of these three chassis. I agree with you completely that Piper would do his cause much good to publish his memoirs.His wife I am told is working on that. tongascrew

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/0846project.pdf

“Piper has the only P4 drawings that are known of. He was given them by old man Ferrari
and they have been used four times
once for 0900
once for my other car 0900a
once for JGs car
once for an american last year.”

AND

The question everyone asks is: "Why if Piper had 0846 didn't he try to sell it as 0846? Also
as he knows 'every nut and bolt' how could he have missed something? Putting aside his importing
of "0846" into Switzerland in 1977 that Marcel Massini spoke of, go back to 1971.
Piper commissioned 3, P4 chassis from the original chassis manufacturer. (He told me Enzo
had given him permission to call one"0900" and had given him the "original 1967 P4 blueprints".
Indeed he told me and referred in writing to my chassis as having been built by the
original chassis maker using those 1967 P4 blueprints at the same time that "0900"and
"0900A" were made. "same Batch" Tom Meade claims he threw out the original chassis remains
of 0846 in the junkyard at Modena. David got his 3 chassis. One became 0900. One
became my car. One 0900a hung from his ceiling until recently when he sold it to Max
Wakefield. David "Knows every nut and bold and wouldn't miss a thing". I thought about
that and recently noticed something.

I for one am not saying that the document is accurate but there were absolutely three or maybe four cars at different times potentially known as #0900, whether stamped #0900a, b, c & d or something else, who knows. Although reading the document again it is likely that by 2010 Piper only retained one of the #0900 series cars......... So I have actually answered my own question.

 

Here's another one (0900).
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4/344504-312pb.html

 

So that makes 5 potential claimants to #0900 at some point or another and I dont doubt there are others. Facts are always facts unless they are not.

 

Fair enough, was trying to discuss the car(s) labelled #0900, not THE 0846, actually managed to answer my own question so will cease and desist, I apologize for any misdemeanor.

Merry christmas to you, Mr. Moderator.

 

Please tell me if I am wrong, but for my entire adult life I thought you divided the displacement of the engine by the number of cylinders to get the designation.

330 X 12 = 4 liter engine.
350 X 12 = 4.2 liter engine.

So, if it is a 4.2 liter engine, it is against all Ferrari represents to call it a 330, unless, of course it is a 13 cylinder engine. Hmmm, I missed that configuration.

 

You are correct, technically its not a 330 anymore. BUT slightly enlarging the engine bore / re-sleeving was and is a common practice when it comes to overhauling old or worn out machines. As has been mentioned in this thread quite a few high profile cars are driving around with enlarged engines. However "255 GTO" or "285 GTB" sounds a bit off......so of course they keep their original type designation.

In fact noone cares EXCEPT when it comes to 0858. I think the current status is that the engine today in this car is supposed to be the same base engine as in a P4, albeit bored out. Im not sure if this particular engine ever ran in a P4 in period or if it was a spare unit that was installed when the CanAm conversion was made.

 

Pretty simple to resolve as well, just take out the sleeves and re install original spec versions and matching pistons, but why bother other than to keep a few people on this thread happy lol.

As it is, a future buyer can always now just rebody it with the Can Am clams and Bobs your uncle the ugly duckling has returned from the dead!

 

Ferrari (according to Steve and others who have spoken to Ferrari) has clearly stated that this particular engine, the one currently in 0858 is a typo 350 Can Am engine (it's clearly stamped as one) and never ran in P4 0858. There is also the fact that a 350 Can AM engine with the exact same serial number and typo stamps is also in David's "P4" replica "0900". There are also the photo's I posted of a different Ferrari engine that had two different Typo's stamps that were made by Ferrari when they changed Typo's on that particular engine.

0858 today is what it is and isn't what it is not. All of the opinions of what it is and what's it's not out there and the new buyer (assuming there is one) either did his research or he didn't and either way decided to buy the car as it is. If he's happy and the seller's happy what's not to like?

 

Thank you.

"....engine xx never ran in P4 0858...." is a statement that leaves many questions. Obviously the mod'ed P4 aka CanAm engines have a different typo.....of course the enlarged and modified engine with the new typo never ran in a P4. It still isnt a conclusive statement that its not the bored out old P4 unit.

IMHO it is still quite likely that the engine currently in 0858 is a genuine P4 base engine, either an unused spare unit or installed in one of the other P4s. Or were there new engines made, i.e.new blocks cast specially for CanAMs?

 

Ferrari is quite clear. This engine is a 350 Can Am engine. It never ran in P4 0858 or any other P4. It's serial number is clear and the exact same serial number 350 Can Am engine is in Pipers 350 "P4" replica.

0858 as it exists today has an original chassis that began as a P4, was modified by Ferrari into a 350 Chassis and many years later was chopped by Piper to enable the fitting of a replica "P4" body. As per Ferrari the engine in 0858 today is an original 350 Can Am engine that was never in P4 0858 and is so clearly stamped. It has no P4 stampings or Le Mans ACO stamps that I could see when I inspected it. If there are Piper should post photos of them.

 

Yes, Ferrari is always quite clear in making statements of fact that don't encompass what actually happened in the continuum of time. We know that Ferrari has stated as fact that certain cars were "destroyed and scrapped". While factual and so as to not run afoul of the moderators, I shall refer by link.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4/423520-one-only-0846-debate-thread.html

As far as the whether the engine had a history as a P4 engine prior to having the Tipo designation changed, the ACO stampings would indeed be the best way to determine the truth, as if they exist, they would link past P4 history through to the 350 CanAm history to todays incarnation.

 

This paragraph is a good example why we should take all these statements coming from the factory with a grain of salt. They claim to know which engine was in which car, yet somehow at least two engines with that s/n got out.

So where did the CanAm engines come from? Newly made? Then why did 0844 not get one of those 4.2l ones?

 

Ferrari has NEVER said that 0846 was "destroyed". That is fact. In writing they confirmed that they "scrapped" 0846 and I "resurrected" 0846. That is fact. It is also pure fact that Ferrari has recognized on Their website, in their sole discretion that I am, and have been since 2000, the owner of 1967 Ferrari 330 P 3/4 Chassis 0846.

Wayne has made it clear that 0846 should be discussed in the specific 0846 thread and why you make statements about 0846 that are NOT true here remains beyond me.

The lack of ACO stamps speaks for itself. If they exist on the engine that is in 0858 today as I didn't find them they should be documented. I'm still waiting for an answer as to why a 350 Can Am engine with the exact same Typo and serial number as the 350 Can Am Engine in 0858 is currently also in David's 350 "P4" replica.

 

0844's 330 Can Am Engine was never increased in capacity. It started as 330 P3. It was converted to 412P by Ferrari when it was sold to NART. NART used it in that 412P form when they rebodied and raced 0844 as a 330 Can Am. It remained 412P when Symbolic removed the 330 Can Am body and fit a replica 412P body.

You're assuming that the stampings on David's engine were made by Ferrari. A poster here "retired" who once owned an original 412P posted that he didn't think they were.

If you read my pdf document you'll see that Ferrari used the same casting to produce 3 Liter F1 engines, 4 Liter P4 engines and 350 Can Am engines. The way they did it is very cleaver and disclosed in the 0846 and this thread as well. As per the photos I posted earlier of a dual stamped F1/P4/350 Can Am block which is now 4 liter P4 spec. Ferrari did stamp the blocks accordingly and preserve the prior stampings.