David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Engines dont get cast with the number, they are stamped after the event by hand, and only typically on the engine block.

Bare replacement blocks are not allocated any engine number at all normally so it is quite easy to have an engine which has had its block replaced that has no engine number at all. The owner can then stamp whatever they like on that engine, whether it be a unique number or transferred over from the original block.

If the original block later on is rebuilt then hey presto two engines with the same number. Happens all the time just like how numerous classic cars share the same chassis number.

 

I make no statement about the serial number referenced in your post other than by link.

I do point out that one should be careful in taking what Ferrari says as gospel relative to 0858 and its engine as it may or may not be true and use an example of their stated facts and implications that you know well. I agreed with you above, the ACO stamps from LeMans would be very important to determine the chronological progression of the engine. If they don't exist, it could very well have been an F1 engine that was built up into the 350, in which case the engines link to P4 0858 would be broken, but remain link correctly back to CanAm 0858.

 

A spare block built into a 350 Can Am engine when one was needed which as I said could be built as F1/P4/or 350 Can Am as needed. Race mechanics who were there in the day have stated that even in P4's the engines were sometimes built as 3 liter at tracks like The Targa Florio and Nurburgring where fuel economy was very important.

 

Which points out that historic car provenance is an $$numbers game with lots of obscured facts debated because of $$. On many cars clearly there is debate, particularily as to what is real, what survived and what still exists, beyon a chasis plate which seems to be the greates conferor of $$ value.

But here no one seems to disagree that a historic piece survived as a can am car in the original form and substance, almost completly intact from the factory/period use.

What we see is that most historics vaue chasis plate provenance above all, as opposed to true value, and this has caused the destruction of an actual period pice. What exists now may be more $$ valuable in the current view, it may also even be more "authentc" in terms of pices than many so called historics, but it is way less authentic than it was, and a intact period pice has been molested and lost, that is a fact, even if its worth more $$ now.

 

I can honesty see both sides of the debate, and what boxerman says makes a lot of sense. Yes it was pretty much as it last raced and it is a pity more examples cannot remain that way, but if its previous life was more illustrious then thats what happens.

Collectors had the chance to buy it as it was, for what the market was prepared to pay for it, someone did buy it at that level but choose to revert it back to a P4, and its now history as a Can Am, but if a future owner wants to put it back as a Can Am it would not be that difficult.

0858 is far from unique in this respect, it happens all the time with classic racers that evolved over their lifetime

 

I think there needs to be a slight difference between evolution by the factory in period and evolution out of period via a restoration.

It is what it is though, a "restored" car and I am looking forward to seeing more pictures of the finished car.

 

Talacrest Classic Ferrari | 360 Degree Ferrari 330 P4 #0858

For the record I'm not looking for a job at Talacrest...

 

The front is more P3 than P4 ... If they used #0900 as a copy something's don't add up ... ?

Oh well I don't care!
Pete

 

Comparing the snout of the car as it currently is to those I can find in period photos then I have to agree there is some difference. The two small air intakes in each corner appear to rake up far more than any other pics I can find, and as a result the triangle shape underneath is also different, as is the resultant curvature of the whole air intake.

Again though these cars evolved over their racing lives so difficult to say if this is not how the last of the noses ended up? and as 0900 was the last of the breed and used as the template for the current re-configeration does anyone have pics of the front clam of David Pipers car?

 

Hey Jim, I think he is sending a message to you and us guys here.

Talacrest - Year Review 2013 - YouTube

 

I'd say that the burden of proof is on them.

 

I understand this is David Pipers 0900 in green.

and this red P4 seems to have a more similar nose to 0858s current one, no idea which one it is though.
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The Red Car is a replica.

 

How exactly did these car evolve, all the pictures I have seen suggest that the biggest modifications and subtle ones that related to mechanical bits as apposed to aesthetics.

I would be genuinely interested if there were drastic changes, particularly around the wheel rear wheel arch area and the swoop over the rear wheels.

As always this post is intended in the spirit of finding out more info rather than passing judgement.

 

Guys a P4 nose is flat across the top with the curve at the bottom, like #0900 it does not curve up like a P3. This cars nose curves across the top like a guppie sucking in some sea water.
A P3 is flatish at the bottom and the top curves ... which IMO is why the P4 shape is prettier.

[edit]actually just had a look at a few photos of P3's and they are flattish on the top as well so this car is just wrong but I'm also wrong ...[/edit]

Compare with #0850 which is a P412 but same body, carbed engine instead of injected http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/137257300-post32.html
Pete

 

Only if demanded by a potential buyer.

 

The middle image in the seventh row of the post-restoration gallery clearly shows that the slatted piece in the middle of the tail deck has a twist in it.........very poor piece of work.

Paul M

 

Gentlemen, do you know who are laughing themselves to near-death at this prospect?

None other than Enzo Ferrari and Sergio Scaglietti.

This is really too too much. Do you believe for a nano-second that when Scaglietti had to repair a damaged race car or build a new one from the remnants of one or more wrecked cars he brought with him his micrometer and measured every line and bump and then photographed the work in-progress with his Leica on his Linhof tripod with a bubble level to be certain that the result was exactly to like-new fresh from the factory measurements?

I do not mean at all to make this personal, but really, Paul, 'a very poor piece of work'? I believe that both Enzo and Sergio would have called it absolutely masterful, but way too expensive because too far over the top.

Absolutely the only new thing on this thread in the past -------- [you fill in the number of posts] has been the appearance of the car itself and its sale. Everything else has been superfluous repetitive rubbish.

.....then as I end the refrain, thrust home!'

P.S. I express no judgment or opinion on the only underlying issue since post #1, i.e. should the Ferrari CanAm 350 have been re-created as a Ferrari P4. That is a value judgment on which persons of good will can justifiably differ.

 

Interesting. He could be alienating real potential buyers with talk like that.

On the other hand he seems to be pretty proud not to care.

 

Note the cockpit center vent. Pretty funny that.

Cheers!

 

The curve of the body over the rearwheels seems way too high...

 

He knows he is right? Right about what?

 

Arrogance. He has no defense just bluster.

 

Very well put!! And one has to consider that the body on 0900 lay for considerable time in the S.F. scrap yard.What was its condition when removed from 0858 and what was its condition when David Piper got it?? Much of this will never be known.Only D.P. can begin to tell us and as far as I know he has only his memory to rely on. Are there photos or documents from the period? Even if so, and it is unlikely, even these could only approximate the truth. Some day there may be an opportunity to get several of the beauties together.It won't change anything except to emphasize that no two were exactly the same at conception and after a tough life on the race track no two are the same now. I agree the issue of whether 0858 should remain as a CanAm or be returned to its original P4 will never and probably should never be resolved. And so life goes on. tongascrew

 

impossible. One could only built a 350 Can Am with a fake P4 body. And that is exactly what happened. I do not agree with it, but I can only hope the buyer enjoys his purchase in good health.