Rubbish paint again

Sorry to hear that. Are you feeling like The Mayor?

 

Another shot
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An interesting shot showing the pure and perfect reflection of the lights in the windscreen and how the paintwork is almost as flawless as seen on the bonnet (hood). A good test and wish I had shot that before.
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Tim, the car looks superb now!!!

x z8, I do not care whether this gentlemen your referring to is related to the Pope himself, what an utterly ridiculous and flippant series of comments to make!

It is just like saying leave those stupid ugly 'leather bra's' on the front fenders to protect the car for the future'. Sorry no! Both utterly offend the eye. On that logic never even get swirl marks removed, or why not just put our cars in a hermetically sealed bubble to preserve their (crappy) original paint for the future!?

Who gives a cra* if you remove a few microns to CORRECT the finish and make the car look like what it should have left the factory like in the first instance. Just like my other pet HATE, geometry being SO BAD that many F-cars handle like a bus straight out of the factory. Should we preserve those bad suspension geo settings too?

You'll still get many years of enjoyment out of the paint once corrected, especially if its done by a reputable detailer like Topaz. If the clear coat needs repainting in the future, "So be it!". Just put it down to routine maintenance like you do with cam-belt's and other mechanical parts.

 

Just a bit "over it" for now......nothing specific.

Fantastic spec on your F12 BTW, same as my FF.

 

Hi Gents,

Just wanted to add a few comments to this thread which might be useful.*

Tim thank you for posting up this thread and thank you for people's kind words about our work, it's much appreciated.*

As a manufacturer Ferrari and others draw the line to how far they go in finishing their paintwork, their standard is acceptable to 90% of customers... why change it, thats their approach. This is what this debat is about and in my opinion it will never change. If you are like Tim and want your car perfect than companies like us exist to cater for this neich.*I agree they should finish the paintwork better than they are doing but it won't stop you buying their cars. Ferrari owners either accept it or do something about it as Tim and many of our client have done to be able to enjoy their cars fully.

The problem with Ferrari is not the paintwork it's the finishing process which is lacking and causing the Orange peel 'paint distortion' problems the likes of Tim are experiencing and every Ferrari owner besides the ones who have paid for special order colours. Special order colours get flattened to remove this unwanted texture in the clear coat to highlight the colour pigment... To justify what you're paying for, with those cars we need to remove sanding marks left over, so dealing with a simpler issue. Going back to the clear coat - Basically, the faltter the clear coat the more you get to see the colour of the car, which gives that depth. A lumpy / distorted clear coat acts as a barrier between what the human eye can see and the colour of the car, therefore reducing reflectivity, depth of colour and that almost liquid look to the paint finish... straight lights highlight this very well. Compare the glass and the painted panels and you will understand the difference.*

Manufacturers such as Rolls Royce for example flatten all their cars therefore the finish*is far better same with Mclaren, Aston etc... It still needs refining, however the argument that flattening the clear coat makes it unstable doesn't really stack up! On Ferrari's you remove approximately 6-7 microns of clear coat from approximately 45 to achieve an exceptable result, besides the usual wax top ups and if the car is washed correctly / safely you shouldn't have to do any further correction treatments maybe once a year max!! This annual treatment will remove max 0.5 - 1 microns, so let's put it this way... The car will start to rust before you go anywhere close to going through the clear coat.*

The painting process on the exterior of the cars are all automated so all modern recent Ferrari's will have the same finish metallic and non metallic. If your car looks very shiney after being detailed its because the gloss factor is very high, any highly polished / corrected paintwork will achieve this... Due to the reflectivity of light from the panel no swirls + imperfections = less of barrier to the mid coat i.e. colour. IF you want the perfect finish then you must flatten the clear coat so it's level I.e. Changing the texture then paint correct it to achieve the perfect result.*

I hope this info helps.*

Regards

Mazin

 

First of all... Travelers car now looks great. Actually better than great.

Second... The two best paint restoration experts in the US (Todd H, and Todd C) that I am aware of both agree that when it comes to regular use road cars, removing the orange peel is not recommended.

Paint is but one issue of many. For me and many others, Ferrari's total package offers enough to satisfy us. I for one think there is no better styled car inside or out. There is no better normally aspirated engine. In other words net/ net, for me there is no better car. Buy what you like...

 

Thanks for saving me to type this...

 

Absolutely stunning!

BTW what is the name of the color?

 

It's really a shame to see a car painted like this. Whatever it's inside/outside the process. I tought Ferrari had one of the most modern paint process of the world.

 

Thanks! Grigio Silverstone though barely recognisable form the factory version.

A couple of years ago when I went to Topaz,despite having owned a Cali in Grigio S, I saw one they had just finished sorting and asked them what colour it was-Grigio S was the answer, and that despite 2 years of owning that same colour.

The difference is truly night and day.

 

This is an excellent thread. Thanks to x_z8 and Topaz for their contributions. I have learned a lot.

 

+1

The one very important point highlighted by both x_z8 (indirectly) and Mazin from Topaz is that its critical to fully understand at what level the paint thickness is to begin with on the various parts of the body, especially if removing orange peel.
People whom do paint correction without knowing the levels risk the damage far more than professionals using the correct techniques and equipment. I can understand (in the US in particular) from a liability thing not wishing to 'potentially' damage top coats as a business in the detailing arena but giving up isn't what customers want either.

I therefore still stand by my assertion that its absolutely not the right answer to say 'don't fix orange peel' just because the top coat might get a little thin. If that's the case (as can be validated easily with a meter) then simply respray the top coat again and make sure its thick enough to be flatted properly and corrected in the first place. Something Ferrari should do in the first instance.

 

Very interesting thread. Learned a lot. Thanks.

What an end result ... great F12. All the lines really come to live. Well done.

 

In keeping with this post, I called and chatted with my detailer, whose judgement I trust from experience. He also said that there is no single right answer. Some noteworthy things he said were:
-- Ferraris show a lot of variability in the thickness of the clear and in orange peel, even on the same car. Dark colors tend to show orange peeel more than light ones.
-- Much depends on what the owner/customer finds acceptable, and how much flatness a customer really wants.
-- A contraindication for complete flattening is thin clear to begin with and the desire to leave enough clear afterward to be able to address a scratch.
-- It's not an either/or situation. You can get fairly aggressive in paint correction using heavier compounding materials whose results approach that of wet sanding without taking off as much clear.

So at the end of the day, the finish you want can be "dialed in" depending on the owner's desires and the starting point as delivered by the factory. It is an individual decision. But Traveler's F12 as revealed by his photos seemed unacceptable to anyone and he was right to insist on Ferrari stepping up to its responsibility.

 

The OP's F12 was an abomination. Totally unacceptable.

Most new Ferraris have some orange peel. If this is unacceptable either don't buy the car or customize the paint after the purchase. The choice is yours. Nobody is forcing you to buy these cars. If you look at enough new Ferraris you will know what to expect so that you can set reasonable expectations.

Regardless, what most people fail to realize is that the paint is not why we purchase these cars. The paint has never been worth the money and it never needed to be for Ferrari to be successful. Ferrari's are more about the engine, less about the paint.

If this is unacceptable then buy something else. I and many others will enjoy our somewhat imperfect but otherwise beautiful and thrilling Ferraris.

This type of a purchase is emotional. If you want rational, buy a Toyota or Honda, etc.

 

uhhh, or McLaren. perfect paint

 

It's not perfect but is certainly is a substantial improvement on Ferrari who should learn from it.

 

Thought this was an interesting pre shot,on the air bridge, just by the shield. Just compare that to now which I will post below for easy comparison.
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And my final comparison photo on the matter now that it is resolved.
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for the factory to achieve the same result, would they follow your path or should they change their painting technique?
btw, great result.
ed

 

I don't think they need to go this far. The only reason I have is because my car was so bad and if you are rubbing down the clear coat, then, for the time involved you might as well get it perfect. Were the factory to either apply the clear coat with more attention or do a hand finishing that Rolls etc do, then there would not be an issue to correct except for the anally compulsive.

 

That is amazingly terrible. I agree that this should never have left the factory. Interesting that most are not nearly this bad so that most will accept them. My 458 is really fine though it has some orange peel. And my wife's F430 in Silverstone is actually excellent except around the license plate area. Oddly enough the least orange peel is on our $25K Abarth from Fiat. Go figure. Keeping fingers crossed on imminent FF.

 

Agreed, still you won't be learning any more nuggets of wisdom here from Banned User 'Topaz Detailing' unfortunately...
CH

 

The "before" photos of Traveller's F12 were truly shocking. I don't consider myself very picky, but that heavy obvious orange peel would have caused me to require a solution from Ferrari or the dealer also.

My 2013 Silverstone 458 (purchased new) has a few spots of barely visible orange peel. It is nothing like the "pebbled" look in Traveller's photos - just some spots where the reflections on the surface are slightly distorted. The car was detailed by the dealer before I ever saw it, so I don't know (and, honestly, don't want to know) whether the detailing by the dealer corrected some orange peel. The car had absolutely no swirls, so there must have been some correction in the detailing.

I just picked up a new Cayenne Turbo in non-metallic black. It has more orange peel than my Ferrari. Again, no pebbled look like Traveller's photos, but more instances of distorted reflections (somewhat easier to see than on the 458). And again, I'm not tempted to have it sanded flat. I hope I'm never confronted with the situation that Traveller faced. On the other hand, Traveller's car now looks great.